Knights of Columbus Secrecy

[mary_bobo]

I am sorry if I offended. I really did not mean you personally, only the subect as a whole. I could have said it a different way and for that I apologize.

 

[28562]

I guess **none **of you women that have an issue with the KoC have friends that confide in you and ask you not to tell anyone the secrets they tell you, right?

If so, do you betray their trust and tell your husband?

 

[SamH]

I say this to the Knights at my parish and they say, “But there is nothing to worry about” and we go around in circles. I don’t understand how it is permissible within the context of marriage to say to my wife, "There is a major part of my life which I promise is OK but which I can never discuss with you."

-Tim-

-Tim-

The degree ceremonies are a major part of a person’s life? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Baelor]

The secrecy of the knights initiation is not about pretentiousness, but about not spoiling the story for lack of a better term. If my wife really wanted to know I would likely give her the 5 minute outline, but I would not tell my sons so that I did not spoil the revelations that can come from the ceremonies.

So they are truly revelatory?

Being a convert raised in a masonic family I can tell you that they masonic initiations (what little I know of them) are very different from the knights initiations. One is about mysticism and the other is about teaching moments and helping a man draw closer to God, the church and their families. The impact of those teaching moments can be spoiled if you know about them before hand.

For the record, there was never any concern on my part about anything theologically or morally problematic happening at the initiations.

All this reminds me of the Greek mystery cults and epiphany through experience, revelation, etc.

The degree ceremonies are a major part of a person’s life? I find that hard to believe.

Then you agree with TimothyH.

 

[Ophelia23]

Truthfully, I regret posting my question. After reading the responses, I am finding some of the judgment being cast on me and my marriage to be hurtful. I’m afraid I did not articulate what I was feeling very well. My feelings, as they were, were irrational and I knew that; I was struggling with–and admitting to–the irrationality of my own thoughts while looking for support from other wives who may have had the same feelings. I was in no way trying to cast judgment on the KofC, and I am in no way angry with my husband or prying my husband to tell me what happened.

 

[Havard]

Truthfully, I regret posting my question. After reading the responses, I am finding some of the judgment being cast on me and my marriage to be hurtful. I’m afraid I did not articulate what I was feeling very well. My feelings, as they were, were irrational and I knew that; I was struggling with–and admitting to–the irrationality of my own thoughts while looking for support from other wives who may have had the same feelings. I was in no way trying to cast judgment on the KofC, and I am in no way angry with my husband or prying my husband to tell me what happened.

Pay no attention to the crabby responses. Your feelings are understandable. :console:

 

[maryjk]

I guess **none **of you women that have an issue with the KoC have friends that confide in you and ask you not to tell anyone the secrets they tell you, right?

If so, do you betray their trust and tell your husband?

My friends know that if they tell me something, I may very well tell my husband. There is no betrayal of trust because my friends know up front that my husband and I became one when we married. Most of my friends believe the same, and would talk to their husbands in the same way.

 

[Havard]

So they are truly revelatory?

For the record, there was never any concern on my part about anything theologically or morally problematic happening at the initiations.

All this reminds me of the Greek mystery cults and epiphany through experience, revelation, etc.

There is absolutely no esoteric, hidden, or forbidden knowledge.

The Knights are loyal to the Church. The only sources we have to draw from are the same sources that every other Catholic has access to. But that doesn’t mean the ceremony can’t be revealing.

For example, sometimes I find I discover some new facet of life and faith in reading Lewis or Chesterton. Neither adds to tradition or Scripture, rather, it’s simply how they present it that turns a light bulb on in my head.

 

[Mintaka]

Ophelia23 – Some of the folks replying to you are really talking about their own issues. I know it’s hard not to take stuff personally, but don’t let them discourage you.

One thing that might help a lot is reading the big biography of Fr. McGivney, who founded the K of C. It will give you a lot of the whys and wherefores of the organization – and also teach you a lot about Catholic history! It’s called Parish Priest: Father Michael McGivney and American Catholicism, by Douglas Brinkley and Julie M. Fenster.

Another thing that might help is joining a women’s group at your parish, a craft group, etc.

You might also ask the intercession of the Mexican K of C martyrs to help you get through this.

 

[Baelor]

There is absolutely no esoteric, hidden, or forbidden knowledge.

Right, I never thought that.

The Knights are loyal to the Church. The only sources we have to draw from are the same sources that every other Catholic has access to. But that doesn’t mean the ceremony can’t be revealing.

So the ceremony separate from general participation in the KoC provides a revealing of a facet? It is hard for me to grasp what this would be like, but I suppose I would have to go through it to understand (or not, depending on how personally revelatory it is).

 

[EasterJoy]

Truthfully, I regret posting my question. After reading the responses, I am finding some of the judgment being cast on me and my marriage to be hurtful. I’m afraid I did not articulate what I was feeling very well. My feelings, as they were, were irrational and I knew that; I was struggling with–and admitting to–the irrationality of my own thoughts while looking for support from other wives who may have had the same feelings. I was in no way trying to cast judgment on the KofC, and I am in no way angry with my husband or prying my husband to tell me what happened.

Let’s clarify a few things:

I don’t think you implied you were entitled to know this information and I don’t think you were casting judgement on the Knights, and I don’t think that anyone else here thinks so, either. This thread grew beyond your particular issue to a larger one: *Do the Knights even have legitimate room to ask such a thing of a member? *The problem, from my standpoint, came with posts implying that your feelings were not only rational, but entirely justifed based on the nature of marriage etc etc.

Although I can’t see it myself, I am not saying that it is irrational to oppose any secrecy in marriage. I think the logic is faulty, but that’s me. If a couple wants to tell each other everything, fine for them…until they start telling the world that there is something inherently wrong with doing otherwise or that the Knights are in error if they think a good Catholic marriage can be run that way or to that Catholic couples who don’t believe in telling each other everything have a faulty understanding of what a sacramental marriage is. That crosses a line, and not an insignificant line!

This policy of the Knights of Columbus may be liked or disliked, it may or may not fit with how some particular couple sees fit to run their marriage and therefore may be a reason that some men do not become Knights, but it is not a violation of a proper understanding of the sacrament of marriage as taught by the Catholic Church.

You may as well say that Wednesday night is family night and that any Knights council that has Wednesday meetings are violating the sanctity of family time. It could be true for your family and a legitimate reason not to become a Knight, but it is not a legitimate reason for a blanket condemnation of the request.

 

[Usige]

So they are truly revelatory?

All this reminds me of the Greek mystery cults and epiphany through experience, revelation, etc.

Revelatory was probably not a good choice of words. Each degree reminds a knight of the different aspects of their life that God calls on them. The “revelation” is that aha moment. There is no “secret knowledge” passed on; no “mystic revelations”.

As for the degree investitures being a “major part” of a Knights life? Hardly. We are talking about 2.5 hours of a knight’s life. Every other part of a knights service is generally visible. Even at that these are not solemn oaths. If the police asked we are not bound to keep an oath through death.

The primary purpose of the Knights is to support the church and take care of our parish family.

• When Father says we need help directing traffic for Easter or Christmas services? The knights are there.
• The widow of Brother Jones needs help shoveling snow? The knights are there.
• Seminarian Martins needs financial support? The knights are there.
• The bishop asks for help to purchase a mobile ultrasound to help save the unborn? The knights are there.

If you look at your parishes, my guess is that the men that are quietly serving are these “super secretive” knights (often in their blue shirts emblazoned with the KofC crest and their name ). Maybe it’s just where I live, but the knights are the men who take service to Church and family to heart. The vast majority of males that volunteer in the parishes in my area are knights so that 2.5 hrs 20 years ago seems like a nit compared to their thousands of hours supporting their families, parish, bishops and the Church.

In contrast my father is a 32 degree mason. His ritual books were written in geometric symbols. There were generally 3 or 4 hours a week where he could not share one word of what happened. Masons have tens if not hundreds of hrs per year of secrecy compared to a KofC’s 2.5 hrs over a life time. While many Masons do charitable works that is not the primary purpose of the Masonic Lodge.

I am not trying to pick a fight, but to merely state that their is a big difference between secret societies like the Masons, Skull and Bones, etc. who exist as power brokers and KofC which in essence is a service organization dedicated to serving the Church and parish.

 

[Baelor]

Revelatory was probably not a good choice of words. Each degree reminds a knight of the different aspects of their life that God calls on them. The “revelation” is that aha moment. There is no “secret knowledge” passed on; no “mystic revelations”.

And the a-ha moment, then, as you mentioned, requires a lack of knowledge about the ceremony?

 

[EasterJoy]

My friends know that if they tell me something, I may very well tell my husband. There is no betrayal of trust because my friends know up front that my husband and I became one when we married. Most of my friends believe the same, and would talk to their husbands in the same way.

OK, but would you think less of them if they decided you weren’t someone to tell secrets that they really did not want to go beyond the two of you?

Maybe it is because my husband practices medicine, but I simply cannot understand this reluctance to accept requests to keep the secrets of a 3rd party and this anxiety to know every secret our spouse knows. It is not as if we think spouses ought to tell us *their *every secret thought, do we? If not our husband’s every experience, then why the experiences where secrecy is for the sake of the innocent request of a 3rd party?

Do any of us really tell each other “everything”? Really, I think this means that if our husband thinks we look fat and are acting crabby, or if he thought that of us yesterday, or if he saw one of our friends saying something nasty about us behind our backs, he is bound to disclose that. Even if we wanted that, would that always be charitable of our husband to comply with that desire? Rather, let’s hope he has the good sense to exercise some prudence. If he is, then why couldn’t he exercise prudence in honoring the request of the Knights not to talk about things they really don’t want future members to find out about in advance?

Again: It’s not wrong,* per se*, to run your marriage that way. I just don’t think anyone really does, or that I’d want to even if anyone else did. I think that “we tell each other* absolutely everything*” is a comfortable myth that few couples live by, let alone ought to live by.

Finally: look at the Catechism:
***IV. RESPECT FOR THE TRUTH

2488 **The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

**2489 **Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283 *

The Church teaches that the respect for privacy is a sufficient reason to be silent about what one knows. Find for me where it is in Catholic teaching that a Catholic is bound to disclose everything to their spouse. You will find that nowhere in the Catholic teaching concerning the nature of marriage. That is the private policy held by some individual couples, and I think it is a policy that, if truly carried out, is not without danger to virtue.

–Signing off for Triduum…Have a Blessed Easter, Everyone!!! –

 

[Havard]

Right, I never thought that.

So the ceremony separate from general participation in the KoC provides a revealing of a facet? It is hard for me to grasp what this would be like, but I suppose I would have to go through it to understand (or not, depending on how personally revelatory it is).

I’ll be honest, just talking like this about it is probably too much buildup…

It’s like when someone plans a surprise date, or a surprise birthday party. The more you find out about it, the less exciting it is when you actually have it.

Maybe you should try a Kairos retreat, and see what that’s like. The secret behind that experience isn’t wrapped up in an ongoing social group, so if you end up not thinking it was worth your time, you can easily just forget it happened.

 

[maryjk]

OK, but would you think less of them if they decided you weren’t someone to tell secrets that they really did not want to go beyond the two of you?

Maybe it is because my husband practices medicine, but I simply cannot understand this reluctance to accept requests to keep the secrets of a 3rd party and this anxiety to know every secret our spouse knows. It is not as if we think spouses ought to tell us *their *every secret thought, do we? If not our husband’s every experience, then why the experiences where secrecy is for the sake of the innocent request of a 3rd party?

It think you totally missed what I posted about my parents. BOTH had federal security clearances, BOTH. Neither could talk about their work. Everyone understood it. Everyone dealt with it. The clearances regarded National Security. I also worked at the same agency.

Doctors, lawyers all have reasons to keep things secret. I get it. It is part of their JOB.

Honestly, I wish my friends wouldn’t tell me secrets. Unless it is a surprise party or they are pregnant, just keep it to yourself. And only tell me if you want me to help plan the party. Otherwise, all secrets I have been told, are things best told to a priest during Confession. Just leave me out of it.

Keeping a secret isn’t the same as not telling someone every thought you have. I don’t tell my husband how many time I went to the bathroom today. It isn’t a secret, just not important enough to share. Same with whatever was said in any meeting he had at work. I just don’t care.

Keeping a secret involves knowing information and keeping that information from your spouse. Not because you forgot or you didn’t think it was interesting, but keeping it from your spouse on purpose.

It reminds me of school kids. " I know something you don’t know." Whop diddy ding dong. Grow up.

 

[Havard]

Keeping a secret involves knowing information and keeping that information from your spouse. Not because you forgot or you didn’t think it was interesting, but keeping it from your spouse on purpose.

It reminds me of school kids. " I know something you don’t know." Whop diddy ding dong. Grow up.

Sheesh…

Honestly, who’s really making the big deal here? Certainly not the Knights, who are only trying to respond to the concerns of others. Where is the gloating and lording, exactly? In fact, when was the last time a Knight even brought this topic up to discuss? In my experience, the answer would be never.

 

[triumphguy]

The Knights are a fraternal organization. That means as Knights we are brothers and can rely on each other in times of need. The “secrecy” is the entrance price we pay to be brothers. It’s not a big deal unless it’s made a big deal, but as Catholic Gentlemen who have made a promise they have to keep that promise. It’s not a secret or a promise that goes against any precept of the Church or any vow of Marriage.

It’s just the more people ask what the secret is, the more adamant a Knight is going to be in not telling that secret.

Here’s vid that might help explain all the energy exerted on this issue:
youtube.com/watch?v=PSnw-PHLUxY&feature=related

 

[L_piperatus]

The union of man and woman created with this type of self giving love, created in the image of the Trinity “Nake and without shame” precludes secrets of any kind.

…keeping secrets is inconsistent with a sacramental covenant obligation with Trinitarian love as it’s model and goal.

EasterJoy did a fine job of refuting this argument in her posts #58 and 75.

I will add that since KofC is a Catholic organization founded by a Catholic priest, I think the Catholic Church would have intervened already if the secret nature of a KofC initiation ceremony was somehow sinful or in conflict with Catholic teaching.

In a broader context, there are tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions) of Catholics worldwide who are employed in jobs/participate in ministries that require them to keep secrets. If keeping secrets was a violation of the sacrament of marriage, the Catholic Church would have already intervened by issuing authoritative instructions telling married Catholics that they are forbidden to participate in any ministries or accept any employments whatsoever that would require them to keep secrets from their spouses.

Here are just a few ministries and jobs that require secrecy:

-the priesthood - married priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches and the newly established Anglican Rite Ordinariate which includes converts from the Anglican Church who become married priests. These priests hear confessions and advise people on highly confidential matters.

-family counselors, psychologists - they are expected not to disclose the confidential information of their clients

-medical doctors

-pharmacists

-lawyers

-businessmen who are not allowed to disclose the privileged information of their clients

-inventors; scientists working for high-tech companies with inventions and trade secrets

-members of the special operations forces (Navy SEALs, Delta force, etc) who are forbidden to talk about their secret missions.

I mean, if a married Catholic was truly forbidden to keep secrets from their spouse per the official teaching of the Catholic Church, then I would expect to see official Church documents dealing with the issue. There would be some official Church document out there telling that all of the above jobs and more are off-limits for married Catholics. However the absence of any such official Church document, and the very existence of Catholic married priests and counselors, family therapists employed by Catholic dioceses, who are clearly understood to keep the secrets of parishioners/clients from their spouses, are sufficient proof that the idea of “you can’t keep secrets from your spouse” is NOT a Catholic teaching.

I don’t particularly care if some of the posters here are uncomfortable with keeping secrets from their spouses, it’s their prerogative to do so. However, we are on Catholic Answers Forum and the public purpose of this forum is to give CATHOLIC ANSWERS to various questions. And the Catholic answer is, “No, the Catholic Church does not teach that married people keeping secrets from each other violate the sanctity of marriage”.

 

[LucyLight]

Truthfully, I regret posting my question. After reading the responses, I am finding some of the judgment being cast on me and my marriage to be hurtful. I’m afraid I did not articulate what I was feeling very well. My feelings, as they were, were irrational and I knew that; I was struggling with–and admitting to–the irrationality of my own thoughts while looking for support from other wives who may have had the same feelings. I was in no way trying to cast judgment on the KofC, and I am in no way angry with my husband or prying my husband to tell me what happened.

Its too bad that people have accused you of wanting to gossip, being nosey, controlling it’s all ridiculous. I agree with you that it does seem to be at least a little problematic. Its a group that men join for fun and to grow in their faith. Were not talking about working for the CIA here and needing security clearances I’m not saying that people should tell their spouse everything but KofC probably shouldn’t have their members keeping secrets from their wives. I’m sure there are some men that would like to tell their wives what goes on. I think they should be able to.