Knights of Columbus Secrecy

[LucyLight]

Being single I find this thread instructive - I think we single folks (both single men and single women) should really watch out not to marry some control freak who will ruin our ability to work and serve others in our chosen professions/vocations/ministries. Whether you serve as a lawyer, as a life scientist, as a marriage counselor, or as a Knight of Columbus, in the end it’s more than just a means of earning a paycheck (and KofC members do not earn a paycheck for their service), because you are serving people, and secrecy when required, is simply a tool that helps you perform your profession/vocation/ministry in a safer, more effective, more adequate manner.

I’m not a lawyer but I’m in a somewhat similar situation to you. I’m an inventor and I have been working closely with patent attorneys for many years, on several patent applications. I have a duty not to share confidential information with outside people (not even with family members), and my patent attorney has a similar duty. So far, with my family, this has never been a problem. My family members know that I work on new experimental drugs that will help a lot of sick people with cancer and other diseases, and that’s enough to them. They are happy for me, and not privy to detailed information that’s confidential.

So, would I ever want to marry some psychologically unbalanced control freak who feels threatened by my “secrets” and wants to know exact chemical structures that have not been disclosed yet, exact animal models and experimental details with tumor inhibition data and so on - or else quit my job, since my contractual obligations forbid me from disclosing this info? Not a chance in hell. Thank you, I’m quite happy the way I am, working jobs that require me to keep confidential information, and I’m not going to ruin my life marrying some control freak who can’t deal with it.

The ideal is that when you get married you love your wife above all others and place her above your career, interests etc. If she is interested in your work and wants to know what you are working on that would be a pretty normal reaction for your spouse to have. Ideally, you would not think that she is “some psychologically unbalanced control freak.” Instead you would help her understand because she is more important than your work and you want her to be happy. If you are going to get married you have to be willing to lay your life down for your spouse. Marriage is a big calling and its not for everyone.

To reverse the situation, I would have no problem marrying a woman who has a similar duty to keep confidential information in her line of work. If I marry, let’s say, another life scientist, it’s enough to me to know that she is working on “good drugs”, i.e. ethical drugs, rather than some “bad drugs” like the next abortive pill or whatever. I don’t need detailed information.

And now I understand that the KofC is a similar situation, only more secure morally than a typical secular job, because the full moral authority of the Catholic Church stands behind KofC’s practices, including the initiation ceremony which is kept secret and which the Catholic Church is OK with. So, why the heck would be an outsider privy to the exact details of a KofC initiation ceremony, after they have been told already that Catholic bishops and priests have been part of the same ceremony, and that the Catholic Church is fully aware and approving of the whole thing?

I understand why someone would keep secrets from their spouse if they were a lawyer or a medical doctor because clients/patients confide in them and their welfare is at stake. I don’t think The KofC on the other hand have a serious enough reason to ask their members to keep a secret from their spouse. Like I said earlier the knights themselves might want to share with their wives their experience.

 

[triumphguy]

Or they may want to keep to themselves the exact details of what happened because they made a promise.

What is it about making a promise that offends?

If you don’t get it you don’t get it. But since you don’t get it, why do you think you have the right to tell the Knights how to operate?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Or they may want to keep to themselves the exact details of what happened because they made a promise.

What is it about making a promise that offends?

If you don’t get it you don’t get it. But since you don’t get it, why do you think you have the right to tell the Knights how to operate?

I don’t think that anyone is trying to tell the knights how to operate. They are just commenting on whether they would want to join or want their husband to join based on how they operate.

 

[Della]

If it’s so terribly inconsequential and insignificant - then why the secrecy? If it’s all about not spoiling the “surprise” for new recruits, then why can’t wives know? Wives will never join KoC. Can they not be trusted not to tell other men all about the ceremonies? I don’t get it.

This reminds me of the super-secret Mormon sealing ceremonies.

I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear. It’s the fuss over it that is inconsequential. It means a great deal to those being initiated. My bad.

 

[the_phoenix]

Threads like this remind me of the old Flintstones cartoon where Wilma and Betty dress up like men and go undercover to attend a super-secret lodge meeting of the Water Buffalo to see what their husbands Fred and Barney are up to.

Being a single female and not privy to any KoC secrets, I can at least describe a situation that I’m betting is similar. Long ago when I lived in another city, I joined the Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians. They had a “secret password.” To my mind, there’s absolutely nothing secret about the password except that somebody chose to call it secret. The password I learned is completely harmless, in fact it’s good, and perfectly in line with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. If I had any quibble at all, the only thing I would say is, “Why is this a password? It’s something that I think needs to be screamed out from the rooftops at the top of our lungs with a megaphone.”

To sum up, based on my experience with the Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians, I would trust that the kind of secrecy found within the Knights of Columbus would be along the same lines as what I experienced.

Personally, if I were married, I would simply be happily thrilled to have my husband join the KoC, and would not feel the need to ask about KoC secrets.

…

 

[MaryHelene]

I don’t think that anyone is trying to tell the knights how to operate. They are just commenting on whether they would want to join or want their husband to join based on how they operate.

Yep. I don’t care how the KofC operates, and if they feel it’s important to have secret induction rituals, then they should maintain them. That’s their business and I’m sure they’re not doing anything immoral. I wouldn’t want to be a part of something clandestine, and my husband wouldn’t either. That kind of thing seems ridiculous to us. Just our perspective and preference.

 

[triumphguy]

Clandestine? People are blowing this right out of proportion!!!

Clandestine means they operate in secret and undercover.

The Knights don’t do anything clandestinely. They are upfront, open and in public with everything they do.

They just ask that new members promise not to tell what happens in the initiation ceremony!:banghead:

I’d say that if someone is so upset about the Knights and their “secret,” “clandestine” organization that you avoid their breakfasts, make sure you don’t show up in pro-life events, keep away from high profile masses at the Cathedral, watch that you aren’t supporting any of the charities they support, make sure your kids do not serve on the altar because probably the Knights are there either supporting, funding, or serving in one role or another.

Also try to avoid anything in the parish that uses the word Charity, Unity, Fraternity or Patriotism because the Knights have co-opted these words for their nefarious purposes.

 

[MaryHelene]

Clandestine? People are blowing this right out of proportion!!!

Clandestine means they operate in secret and undercover.

The Knights don’t do anything clandestinely. They are upfront, open and in public with everything they do.

They just ask that new members promise not to tell what happens in the initiation ceremony!:banghead:

I’d say that if someone is so upset about the Knights and their “secret,” “clandestine” organization that you avoid their breakfasts, make sure you don’t show up in pro-life events, keep away from high profile masses at the Cathedral, watch that you aren’t supporting any of the charities they support, make sure your kids do not serve on the altar because probably the Knights are there either supporting, funding, or serving in one role or another.

Also try to avoid anything in the parish that uses the word Charity, Unity, Fraternity or Patriotism because the Knights have co-opted these words for their nefarious purposes.

I think you’re blowing my perspective out of proportion. Like I said many times, I do not think the KofC are bad, evil, nefarious - any of that. Just because my husband and I think secret ceremonies are bizarre does not mean I don’t think others should not participate if they want to. Obviously the KofC do a lot of good, and I support those good deeds.

 

[Havard]

I think you’re blowing my perspective out of proportion. Like I said many times, I do not think the KofC are bad, evil, nefarious - any of that. Just because my husband and I think secret ceremonies are bizarre does not mean I don’t think others should not participate if they want to. Obviously the KofC do a lot of good, and I support those good deeds.

The ceremonies aren’t bizarre, if you know the history. Taken directly from kofc.org:

“Anti-Catholicism was a reality faced personally by Father Michael J. McGivney. St. Mary’s Church, where he served as parish priest, had been unable to build on the New Haven town green where most of the Protestant churches were located. Built on Hillhouse Avenue, Father McGivney’s parish was openly criticized by the New York Times as a blemish on an otherwise aristocratic avenue. Between the discrimination and the everyday hardships of Catholics who often worked in dangerous and unforgiving jobs, Father McGivney saw the need for an organization that would both strengthen the faith of his parishioners and protect the financial stability of families.”

“New Haven was an industrial city, with hundreds of factories in operation at the time when Father McGivney was a priest there. And as the newspapers of the time attest, the factories were dangerous places that left many immigrant families unexpectedly fatherless. At the time, men’s fraternal organizations were quite popular, not only for their camaraderie, but also because they often provided a rudimentary form of life insurance, giving members’ families financial support in the event that the breadwinner died or was incapacitated. Most of these organizations were also secret societies forbidden to Catholics, and even hostile to the Church.”

Those were the times and context in which Father McGivney founded the Knights. Even if some don’t think they are relevant today, the particular formalities that he developed are a still tradition, and most of us like keeping tradition.

 

[cviolette]

My husband is in the KOC. Never bothered me that the ceremonies are secret.

Both my husband and I had security clearance and could not discuss work details except for the programs that we were both cleared on. It was not a problem. We could still discuss our day just not certain details.

I would be very upset if I found out my lawyer discussed private details about me to his wife.

 

[MaryHelene]

The ceremonies aren’t bizarre, if you know the history. Taken directly from kofc.org:

Those were the times and context in which Father McGivney founded the Knights. Even if some don’t think they are relevant today, the particular formalities that he developed are a still tradition, and most of us like keeping tradition.

I should have been more clear. I understand that the ceremonies are not bizarre. What I think is bizarre is the secrecy. Again, just my perspective. I have no beef with the KoC, it’s just not for my husband.

 

[Havard]

I should have been more clear. I understand that the ceremonies are not bizarre. What I think is bizarre is the secrecy. Again, just my perspective. I have no beef with the KoC, it’s just not for my husband.

Is it bizarre that they were secretive during those anti-Catholic times?

Or is it bizarre that they’ve held onto the tradition?

 

[MissRose73]

My uncle is in the KoC (if I recall right). I could care less about the ceremony to become a Knight. I would have no issue marrying a man who is in this organization.

I do appreciate what they do to help churches in our diocese by hosting monthly breakfasts and/or dinners where the public are invited with funds going to a local church or charity. They do a variety of charity things like fundraisers like the Tootsie Roll Drive.

I work in a profession where we cannot disclose certain details without security questions answered by the customer first successfully. We cannot just make account changes or billing changes on an account of a customer without taking steps to verify them. I’ve worked with thousands of customers over the years, and if any of them were famous I never took the chance to find out as that is not allowed. I do not ask my friends or family to disclose things that happen in their work places that may not be allowed to be discussed outside of it.

 

[L_piperatus]

Threads like this remind me of the old Flintstones cartoon where Wilma and Betty dress up like men and go undercover to attend a super-secret lodge meeting of the Water Buffalo to see what their husbands Fred and Barney are up to.

Being a single female and not privy to any KoC secrets, I can at least describe a situation that I’m betting is similar. Long ago when I lived in another city, I joined the Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians. They had a “secret password.” To my mind, there’s absolutely nothing secret about the password except that somebody chose to call it secret. The password I learned is completely harmless, in fact it’s good, and perfectly in line with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. If I had any quibble at all, the only thing I would say is, “Why is this a password? It’s something that I think needs to be screamed out from the rooftops at the top of our lungs with a megaphone.”

To sum up, based on my experience with the Ladies Ancient Order of Hibernians, I would trust that the kind of secrecy found within the Knights of Columbus would be along the same lines as what I experienced.

Personally, if I were married, I would simply be happily thrilled to have my husband join the KoC, and would not feel the need to ask about KoC secrets.

…

Wilma: Why don’t you take me with you to the Lodge meeting?
Fred: Take you?? Honey you know I can’t do that, the Water Buffalo by-laws expressly forbid a woman even setting foot inside the Lodge.
Wilma: Can’t you change the by-laws?
Fred: No!
Wilma: Why not?
Fred: Because the by-laws say you can’t change the by-laws!

…

Wilma: By the way, how was the meeting, Fred?
Fred: Ah, it was okay…
Wilma: Did you suggest that wives be allowed to attend meetings?
Fred: Well… it was suggested, yeah.
Wilma: And what was the result?
Fred: A fractured collarbone and three cracked ribs!
Wilma: Whaaat?

Thanks for bringing some humor and sanity to the discussion, Phoenix!

For those who want to watch the episode, here’s a link to Ladies Night at the Lodge from The Flintstones - enjoy!

cartoonlair.com/the-flintstones/4x22-ladies-night-at-the-lodge-video_14ef785a1.html

 

[LucyLight]

Or they may want to keep to themselves the exact details of what happened because they made a promise.

Right… different people think differently.

What is it about making a promise that offends?
**
Nothing**

If you don’t get it you don’t get it. But since you don’t get it, why do you think you have the right to tell the Knights how to operate?

**I get it. It’s not a complex issue. I just have a different opinion than you. I’m not telling the knights how to operate I’m sharing my opinion. I don’t think that they should ask members to keep something from their spouse without a serious reason to do so. Wife comes way before a fraternal org. and I think that this ***small ***gesture is an overreach and subtly undermines someones marriage. **

If my husband was a knight and didn’t tell me what they did on a paticular day I probably wouldn’t care. My husband doesn’t tell me everything and I don’t tell him everything. What we decide to tell each other is between us. However, it would bother me if he joined a club that made him promise to keep something from me. The club should have no say on what we decide to tell each other.

 

[mary_bobo]

I don’t think that anyone is trying to tell the knights how to operate. They are just commenting on whether they would want to join or want their husband to join based on how they operate.

I think it would be very unfortunate if a wife did not want her husband to join this wonderful organization because she could not know everything about it. Sometimes when we are very young, we think we need to know everything thought a spouse has. Not necessary. I would have been very pleased if my husband had been a Knight, but alas, he was not Catholic.

 

[Jessup]

Doesn’t seem very " christian" if it is considered a secret society or fraternity. I always thought it was people in the church helping out the community. Seems the only ceremony there should be is prayer and mass.

 

[Havard]

Doesn’t seem very " christian" if it is considered a secret society or fraternity. I always thought it was people in the church helping out the community. Seems the only ceremony there should be is prayer and mass.

It’s not a secret society, for heaven’s sake. Don’t take a random stranger’s word on such things. Go ask your priest what the Knights are all about.

 

[triumphguy]

**I get it. It’s not a complex issue. I just have a different opinion than you. I’m not telling the knights how to operate I’m sharing my opinion. I don’t think that they should ask members to keep something from their spouse without a serious reason to do so. Wife comes way before a fraternal org. and I think that this ***small *****gesture is an overreach and subtly undermines someones marriage.

If my husband was a knight and didn’t tell me what they did on a paticular day I probably wouldn’t care. My husband doesn’t tell me everything and I don’t tell him everything. What we decide to tell each other is between us. However, it would bother me if he joined a club that made him promise to keep something from me. The club should have no say on what we decide to tell each other.

Why all the bolds? Are you yelling?

But it is a serious reason! It’s a commitment to live as a Knight of Columbus and a Catholic Gentleman!

You can’t make that promise then you shouldn’t be a Knight.

 

[cjmclark]

I get it. It’s not a complex issue. I just have a different opinion than you. I’m not telling the knights how to operate I’m sharing my opinion. I don’t think that they should ask members to keep something from their spouse without a serious reason to do so. Wife comes way before a fraternal org. and I think that this ***small ***gesture is an **overreach and subtly undermines someones marriage. **

If my husband was a knight and didn’t tell me what they did on a paticular day I probably wouldn’t care. My husband doesn’t tell me everything and I don’t tell him everything. What we decide to tell each other is between us. However, it would bother me if he joined a club that made him promise to keep something from me. The club should have no say on what we decide to tell each other.

LucyLight, you are of course duly entitled to your opinion. The issue I see here is that (vis a vis the bolded statement), it looks like you’re passing judgment on men who have joined the Knights - that they’ve allowed a “club” to come between them and their spouse, however subtly. In that light, it probably shouldn’t be surprising that some of those men would take offense (and become defensive), and do so vocally.

I do think that if you are concerned that the (relatively minimal) discretion asked by the Knights of their members could be a “gateway drug” to greater issues that would undermine a marriage, that perhaps a chat with your priest might be helpful.

Why all the bolds? Are you yelling?

But it is a serious reason! It’s a commitment to live as a Knight of Columbus and a Catholic Gentleman!

You can’t make that promise then you shouldn’t be a Knight.

We’re all called to serve in different ways. Some are called through groups like the Knights, and some are called to more private ministries. Even within the Church it is easy for someone to be faced with something that they don’t fully understand and may even find bizarre…take, for instance, the celibacy of clergy and religious. That’s a concept that is foreign to the many of us who are called to matrimony. However, I think we should agree that even if we find something to be strange, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not a valuable practice, especially if we recognize that we lack a full understanding of it.