Knights of Columbus Secrecy

[L_piperatus]

The issue I see here is that (vis a vis the bolded statement), it looks like you’re passing judgment on men who have joined the Knights - that they’ve allowed a “club” to come between them and their spouse, however subtly.

Yes, this is what some posters here suggest, and let me take their logic one step further. I’m not married, but if I decided to join KofC, I would be required not to relate my initiation ceremony to my parents, my sister, my brother-in-law, nephew, niece, my friends. I come from an exceptionally close-knit family, and I also highly value my friends. So, then, does this secret initiation ceremony subtly undermine family relationships and friendships as well? Why single out marital relationships? If the secrecy of KofC’s initiation hurts marriages, it must be hurting other relationships and it must be hurting the very fabric of society. Why doesn’t the Catholic Church ban it, if it’s truly harmful to marriages, family relationships, friendships, and to society at large?

Also, why stop at condemning only the secrecy of KofC’s initiation? Why not condemn the secrecy of confession to a priest as well? How about jobs that require us to keep secrets?

Why not argue that my job comes between me and my parents, between me and my niece (she’s a medical student), since I’ve been recently working on a project that required me not to tell anyone anything, beyond the vague description of “It deals with certain pathogenic agents and possible methods to prevent their harmful effects in humans”? Yet nobody in my family threw a hissy fit, and my Mom reassured me of her continued prayers for the success of my work, a work I couldn’t reveal about practically anything, only that it was a service to humanity, and that it was going to eventually help sick people.

As I think of my mother, who prays for me every single day, and is happy when I tell her that my work will hopefully help others, I think I see true family support and solidarity at work. This is how I will measure a potential spouse. Is she happy that I’m making a difference in the world? Will she support me morally? The confidential aspects of a spouse’s work will never undermine a marriage, as long as there’s good will, solidarity, and a general understanding that secrecy is not due to the occupation being immoral.

Even within the Church it is easy for someone to be faced with something that they don’t fully understand and may even find bizarre…take, for instance, the celibacy of clergy and religious. That’s a concept that is foreign to the many of us who are called to matrimony. However, I think we should agree that even if we find something to be strange, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not a valuable practice, especially if we recognize that we lack a full understanding of it.

I have also been thinking along this line. People are constantly rushing to judge as unnecessary, stupid, or even as immoral, that which they don’t understand. Celibacy? It’s outdated and stupid. Corporal self-mortification as practiced by select priests and religious, including the late Pope John Paul II? Ludicrous and a throwback to the dark ages! No condoms for Catholics? It’s more than stupid, it’s immoral, as far as the world judges the Catholic position.

Now, add this hostility towards the secret nature of an initiation into the KofC. But I will trust the judgment of the Catholic Church any day, the secret initiation was invented by a Catholic priest for good reason, and the Catholic Church is clearly approving of the practices of the KofC, including the requirement that KofC members not tell to outsiders what exactly their initiation ceremonies consist of.

 

[ringil]

This alone keeps me out of the organization. I do not care how much good they do, or how fraternal it is. To maintain the trust that I have in my marriage, I cannot join an organization which contains such secrecy. I believe that it undermines my marriage.

Really? It’s not that big of a deal. That would prevent you from joining the KofC?

I am a therapist and I can’t talk about anything clients might tell me, even if it is SUPER interesting or if they are famous. Doctors, and lawyers have the same thing.

It’s just not that big of a deal.

 

[ringil]

Marriage is a Sacrament. Voluntarily joining a fraternal organization is not. Simple enough for this simple guy to understand.

I don’t see it this way. Yes you two are married and joined together, but you are not ABSORBED into one another. You remain two individual people. Much of your life, you share, and some of your life is just yours.

Otherwise that is emotional enmeshment.

 

[ValPal]

By that rationale, wouldn’t it be justified for no woman to ever marry me simply because my being a lawyer requires that I keep privileged information a secret?

This is an incredibly poor “analogy.”

First, there is no spouse in this case. You are single and can do as you wish. You don’t need to discuss anything with a spouse, because there is no spouse.

Second, assuming this was a good analogy, the woman has a choice in this case. In fact, it is all the woman’s choice in this case. The woman can choose or not choose to marry this person.

Third, “justified” is not what I said nor implied. It is an obvious attempt to redirect. If a spouse has any respect for their spouse, they will discuss the situation with the spouse and make the appropriate decision. Unilateral marital decisions, especially those involving secrets, creates distrust and damages marriages. Communication and mutual decisions strengthens them.

 

[triumphguy]

If a spouse has any respect for their spouse, they will discuss the situation with the spouse and make the appropriate decision. Unilateral marital decisions, especially those involving secrets, creates distrust and damages marriages. Communication and mutual decisions strengthens them.

No-one ever said the fact that you have to make a promise had to be kept secret from the wife, just that the new Knight promises not to tell anyone what happens at the ceremony.

I discussed the fact of the promise with my wife before I made the promise at the initiation ceremony. She trusted me to do the right thing. And trusting me, she didn’t ask what went on.

 

[LucyLight]

LucyLight, you are of course duly entitled to your opinion. The issue I see here is that (vis a vis the bolded statement), it looks like you’re passing judgment on men who have joined the Knights - that they’ve allowed a “club” to come between them and their spouse, however subtly. In that light, it probably shouldn’t be surprising that some of those men would take offense (and become defensive), and do so vocally.

I do think that if you are concerned that the (relatively minimal) discretion asked by the Knights of their members could be a “gateway drug” to greater issues that would undermine a marriage, that perhaps a chat with your priest might be helpful.

We’re all called to serve in different ways. Some are called through groups like the Knights, and some are called to more private ministries. Even within the Church it is easy for someone to be faced with something that they don’t fully understand and may even find bizarre…take, for instance, the celibacy of clergy and religious. That’s a concept that is foreign to the many of us who are called to matrimony. However, I think we should agree that even if we find something to be strange, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not a valuable practice, especially if we recognize that we lack a full understanding of it.

I think very highly of the KofC ( I’ve said this a few times now btw). If some man told me that he was a KofC I would think well of him. Btw, my brother and my dad are both knights. However, I don’t like that they ask their members to keep a secret from their spouse. I don’t think that the knights have a serious reason to ask this.

I think that this is a minor issue. If my husband wanted to join I’d let him and probably just tease him about having secret handshakes and stuff ( I know this doesn’t actually happen). My issue is not with spouses keeping information from each other my issue is with the knights asking this of its members. They should have no say in what a married couple decide to tell each other. Just because an organization does a lot of good and is supported and approved of by the church does not make it perfect.

 

[Havard]

This is an incredibly poor “analogy.”

It wasn’t an analogy.

I was extrapolating from the idea you put forward.

First, there is no spouse in this case. You are single and can do as you wish. You don’t need to discuss anything with a spouse, because there is no spouse.

There isn’t now, but what if I’d like one? You suggested that the secrecy could be a problem. Since I’ve already made the decision without giving my future wife a say, isn’t that a potential problem?

Second, assuming this was a good analogy, the woman has a choice in this case. In fact, it is all the woman’s choice in this case. The woman can choose or not choose to marry this person.

Exactly. Maybe we’re not on a different page…

Third, “justified” is not what I said nor implied. It is an obvious attempt to redirect.

You’ve gotten the wrong impression if that’s what you took from what I was saying.

If a spouse has any respect for their spouse, they will discuss the situation with the spouse and make the appropriate decision. Unilateral marital decisions, especially those involving secrets, creates distrust and damages marriages. Communication and mutual decisions strengthens them.

Agreed.

 

[aloe]

Marriage is a Sacrament. Voluntarily joining a fraternal organization is not. Simple enough for this simple guy to understand.

:clapping:

At its most basic level it reminds me of little boy’s clubhouse with a sign that says no girls allowed.

 

[JeraldW]

Wow, some of you have made a mountain out of a mole hill!

Once again.

I am a Knight of the third degree.** Rest assured, NOTHING amoral or against Church teaching is done during the initiations.** Actually quite the opposite!

Each initiation focuses on the specific charism of each degree. 4th- Patriotism, 3rd- Fraternity, etc.

lol

Happy Easter!

 

[ValPal]

Wow, some of you have made a mountain out of a mole hill!

Once again.

I am a Knight of the third degree.** Rest assured, NOTHING amoral or against Church teaching is done during the initiations.** Actually quite the opposite!

Each initiation focuses on the specific charism of each degree. 4th- Patriotism, 3rd- Fraternity, etc.

lol

Happy Easter!

Let’s explore this further. As long as there is nothing amoral or against the Church, it’s perfectly fine to act upon it without the spouse’s permission?

I really don’t understand what the difficulty is with discussing the matter with one’s wife, and having one’s wife have a say in the matter.

 

[garn9173]

Let’s explore this further. As long as there is nothing amoral or against the Church, it’s perfectly fine to act upon it without the spouse’s permission?

Yes, i’m an adult Do you need your husbands permission to join the Catholic Daughters or the Ladies Guild? I’d be thrilled to have the house to myself for a night while the wife goes out with the girls from Church.

I really don’t understand what the difficulty is with discussing the matter with one’s wife, and having one’s wife have a say in the matter.

No offense, but that’s very control freakish.

 

[ValPal]

Since I’ve already made the decision without giving my future wife a say, isn’t that a potential problem?

Maybe, but the non-spouse has complete control of matter since she does not have to marry you.

This is entirely different from the situation under discussion. Making a unilateral decision when married is not the same as making one when not married (for obvious reasons).

 

[garn9173]

Check out the rules posted on an membership application for the Catholic Daughters of America. What if the rules, regulations and bylaws of the order stated not revealing anything of a confidential nature that has taken place during the meeting?

I guarantee you most husbands could care less, they would be thrilled just to have the house to themselves for an hour or two.

catholicdaughters.org/

Hereby apply for membership in the CATHOLIC DAUGHTERS OF THE AMERICA through

Court_________________________________No._____City___________County__________State

and do declare and say:

1. I am a member of ___________________________________________________________Catholic Church.

located at __________________________________________________________________________

1. I will abide by the Bylaws, Rules and Regulations of the Order.
2. I am over eighteen (18) years of age.

Edit: BTW, from exploring the website, the Catholic Daughters seem to have the same presence of the KofC and what do you know, was founded by the KofC as well.

 

[TrueLight]

I really can’t understand why this whole thing is an issue.

Let them have their secret initiation thingie.

 

[triumphguy]

Let’s explore this further. As long as there is nothing amoral or against the Church, it’s perfectly fine to act upon it without the spouse’s permission?

I really don’t understand what the difficulty is with discussing the matter with one’s wife, and having one’s wife have a say in the matter.

The spouse can have a say: they just can’t be told by the husband what happened in the ceremony!

 

[tafan]

…Unilateral marital decisions, especially those involving secrets, creates distrust and damages marriages. Communication and mutual decisions strengthens them.

My gosh, mountain out of a mole-hill. A marriage is strengthened by each spouse having the unilateral power to decide when to make unilateral decisions without consulting the other.

I cannot imagine a worse form of hell on earth than having to discuss and comunicate every little thing with my spouse and not being allowed to have any “secrets” from my spouse. You have no idea how far I have gone to keep my wife from finding out what I spent on a couple of gifts I have given her. I decided to spend the money unilaterally and I have successfully kept it a secret for years.

And I know for a fact the initiation ceremoney of the Knights is a lot less of an important issue than my example I just gave (it was an expensive gift). If a person can’t make that little decision on his own (ie to keep that secret from his spouse), the marriage is in big trouble. I suppose it is a marriage where all the couple will be able to do is keep “communicating” in order to keep things afloat, ha.

 

[L_piperatus]

Check out the rules posted on an membership application for the Catholic Daughters of America. What if the rules, regulations and bylaws of the order stated not revealing anything of a confidential nature that has taken place during the meeting?

I guarantee you most husbands could care less, they would be thrilled just to have the house to themselves for an hour or two.