Knights of Columbus

[teachccd]

No one priest’s opinion about the KCs is any better than mine or yours. Just because he is a priest doesn’t mean he cannot be wrong or cannot be biased. The priest you talked to is most likely not the Council Chaplain and may know very little about the KCs. Being a priest doesn’t make him all knowing. He’s a human being, after all, not God.

Yup and they can be right as well!

The term “soulmate” is an overly romantic one that has set up many a marriage for failure when reality doesn’t live up to such an idea. Married love is of God, not destiny. We will love all the more intensely in heaven, but we will no longer be married. The term “soulmate” suggests that people are mated for eternity, and that’s simply not the case. I object to the term not to the love you and your wife have for each other. How much I love my husband is between him and me–another thing that is allowed to be secret from others.

Thank you for the definition. I have been very happily married for 30 years but I am always willing to learn!!

It’s fine if you no longer want to discuss the issues but you can’t expect no response when your reply was less than kind. You seem to be carrying some kind of chip on your shoulder as if everything people are saying to you is a personal affront. No one here intended any such thing. Why so combative and so negative? You may want to think about that.

Really? Does anyone else agree that I have been combative and negative? The reading of my posts shows quite a bit of charity. I’m not sure who you are referring to here. I’m combative? Really? OK…

 

[Warrior1979]

IMHO, when one is married, one should not being taking secret oaths without the permission of their spouse. If one decides to join the KoC and take secret oaths, discuss the situation with the spouse. If the spouse has not problem with the oaths, then go ahead and join. If the spouse has a problem with it, don’t join. Respect for one’s spouse takes precedence over a voluntary oath of secrecy.

The same goes for people not yet married. Anyone that already belong to the KoC should note, prior to marriage, that they are obligated not to discuss certain things regarding their vows. Get this situation solved beforehand.

I believe that anyone that takes such an oath without the permission of their spouse is simply being disrespectful.

I also believe that very few things warrant being withheld from a spouse. It might be prudent to not discuss certain sins that can damage a relationship, but these are the types of things best discussed with a confessor. Of course, these types of things aren’t remotely similar taking a vow by choice.

 

[teachccd]

All of us ladies are MARRIED to KCs. And no, a priest’s “advise” in confession is only his opinion. We don’t need to deify priests nor is their opinion any better in confession than outside of it. The OP has been belligerent and dismissive of anything that went against his preconceived notions. That’s the problem here, not that we women have expressed what we know from lived experience. Sheesh!

Can you please copy and paste where I have been belligerent? Wow, I do see that here but not in my posts. Seems like I offended you in some personal way and for that I am truly sorry…

 

[teachccd]

IMHO, when one is married, one should not being taking secret oaths without the permission of their spouse. If one decides to join the KoC and take secret oaths, discuss the situation with the spouse. If the spouse has not problem with the oaths, then go ahead and join. If the spouse has a problem with it, don’t join. Respect for one’s spouse takes precedence over a voluntary oath of secrecy.

The same goes for people not yet married. Anyone that already belong to the KoC should note, prior to marriage, that they are obligated not to discuss certain things regarding their vows. Get this situation solved beforehand.

I believe that anyone that takes such an oath without the permission of their spouse is simply being disrespectful.

I also believe that very few things warrant being withheld from a spouse. It might be prudent to not discuss certain sins that can damage a relationship, but these are the types of things best discussed with a confessor. Of course, these types of things aren’t remotely similar taking a vow by choice.

Oh boy, someone on my side… Be ready to duck because there are a few wives out here that are ready to throw tomatoes at our beliefs… Now, am I being combative here? I surely hope not!!

 

[teachccd]

Just an observation. Just about every wife of a KofC that posted dismissed the OPs concern about secrecy in his marriage by saying the secrecy didn’t bother them. Really? Is that the standard for what should concern others - whether it bothers you or not? Then if the OP tried to explain why it bothered him the comeback was to critique something about his marriage and being too close. I can’t believe one of you even went so far as to offer criticism on pastoral advice given in a confessional.

Ladies, you’re not helping. And your tactics sure are similar…

Thanks for “getting” it! It’s rough out here!!

 

[teachccd]

All right I am leaving for a few hours but please feel free to tell me how bad of a husband I am…teachccd

 

[momor]

All of us ladies are MARRIED to KCs. And no, a priest’s “advise” in confession is only his opinion. We don’t need to deify priests nor is their opinion any better in confession than outside of it. The OP has been belligerent and dismissive of anything that went against his preconceived notions. That’s the problem here, not that we women have expressed what we know from lived experience. Sheesh!

The OP has NOT been belligerent and dismissive of the advice given, anything but. The wives on the other hand, not so much.

 

[SKWill]

All right I am leaving for a few hours but please feel free to tell me how bad of a husband I am…teachccd

teachccd, if you’re still following this thread, I have sent you a private message. Please respond at your leisure.

 

[Havard]

As to the secrecy thing, I totally get why it might be an issue between any Knight and his spouse. Hey, I’m not married (yet) but I’ve thought about these things quite a bit. I do hope to get married one of these days.

So here’s my summation of how I personally feel about it:

The secrets Knights are supposed to hold in confidence, the ones they aren’t able to tell their wives are SO limited in scope, and so utterly irrelevant to almost anything else in life, worrying about it, in my mind, is akin to feeling like you can’t have a surprise party for your wife’s birthday because it amounts to keeping secrets from her.

Granted, the degree ceremonies aren’t for your wife’s benefit personally, but a lot of the motivation for secrecy is similar: if the general public knew what happened in degree ceremonies, they wouldn’t be nearly as cool or memorable for those going through them. I suppose you could argue that they should change the rules so that you can at least tell your wife, because the spousal relationship is one of confidence. That’s a fair point, and you’re welcome to campaign for that change if you think it’s right.

But honestly, I think that change would end up being a letdown to all involved, at least for as long as the organization is men-only. The wives would still only hear about the secrets second-hand, not experience them for themselves, and even with a master storyteller, a lot is lost in recounting experiences. And on the other hand, the secrets themselves would be open to those who haven’t personally taken oaths to keep them, increasing the chances that people will relate them. So honestly, little would be gained.

That’s my 2c, anyway. I hope it helps.

 

[momor]

As to the secrecy thing, I totally get why it might be an issue between any Knight and his spouse. Hey, I’m not married (yet) but I’ve thought about these things quite a bit. I do hope to get married one of these days.

So here’s my summation of how I personally feel about it:

The secrets Knights are supposed to hold in confidence, the ones they aren’t able to tell their wives are SO limited in scope, and so utterly irrelevant to almost anything else in life, worrying about it, in my mind, is akin to feeling like you can’t have a surprise party for your wife’s birthday because it amounts to keeping secrets from her.

Granted, the degree ceremonies aren’t for your wife’s benefit personally, but a lot of the motivation for secrecy is similar: if the general public knew what happened in degree ceremonies, they wouldn’t be nearly as cool or memorable for those going through them. I suppose you could argue that they should change the rules so that you can at least tell your wife, because the spousal relationship is one of confidence. That’s a fair point, and you’re welcome to campaign for that change if you think it’s right.

But honestly, I think that change would end up being a letdown to all involved, at least for as long as the organization is men-only. The wives would still only hear about the secrets second-hand, not experience them for themselves, and even with a master storyteller, a lot is lost in recounting experiences. And on the other hand, the secrets themselves would be open to those who haven’t personally taken oaths to keep them, increasing the chances that people will relate them. So honestly, little would be gained.

That’s my 2c, anyway. I hope it helps.

I think you gave a very rational explanation. Thanks.

But consider that the most important vows that Catholics take, Baptism, Matrimony and Holy Orders, are openly celebrated by Catholics and non-Catholics alike in full public ceremony. And the most important sacrament, the Eucharist, takes place publically with nothing hidden. This secrecy thing seems so contrary to Catholic openness and it’s all for such a silly (I think) reason. Does the transparency of our sacramental celebrations and especially our Eucharistic mystery in any way diminish their impact? What I hear described sounds so similar to Freemasonry and Mormon temple ceremonies it gives me the creeps.

 

[teachccd]

teachccd, if you’re still following this thread, I have sent you a private message. Please respond at your leisure.

I got it and you are to be respected. Thank you so much!

 

[teachccd]

The OP has NOT been belligerent and dismissive of the advice given, anything but. The wives on the other hand, not so much.

Thank you!

 

[Havard]

I think you gave a very rational explanation. Thanks.

But consider that the most important vows that Catholics take, Baptism, Matrimony and Holy Orders, are openly celebrated by Catholics and non-Catholics alike in full public ceremony. And the most important sacrament, the Eucharist, takes place publically with nothing hidden. This secrecy thing seems so contrary to Catholic openness and it’s all for such a silly (I think) reason. Does the transparency of our sacramental celebrations and especially our Eucharistic mystery in any way diminish their impact? What I hear described sounds so similar to Freemasonry and Mormon temple ceremonies it gives me the creeps.

I totally hear what you’re saying, but look at when, how, and why the Knights were founded, and that should explain a lot. It was a time and place in U.S. history where Catholics, who were mainly poor immigrants, were distrusted and looked down upon. Catholic men were excluded from labor unions, and denied benefits others weren’t. One of the reasons for the organization’s inception was to provide a support system for the widows of Catholic factory workers and coal miners who would have otherwise received no benefits, and another was to provide a fraternal network since Catholics couldn’t join unions or other fraternities.

Perhaps with your modern, open-minded perspective, you can say “yeah, but that’s no reason to beget more secrecy or exclusiveness”, but I honestly don’t think many Americans here can completely relate to the mindset of the early Knights because most of us have been raised in a very different America.

Edit: I just want to quickly contrast the with Freemasonry. From every source I’ve come across, Freemasons are secretive for a very different reason. It’s my understanding that Freemasons seek esoteric knowledge (like gnosticism) and that although they claim to be associated or at least compatible with Christianity, at their core, they actually hold some views that are at odds with Christianity. KofC has nothing like that going on, it is wholly Catholic and seeks not to add nor take away from Catholicism.

 

[teachccd]

I totally hear what you’re saying, but look at when, how, and why the Knights were founded, and that should explain a lot. It was a time and place in U.S. history where Catholics, who were mainly poor immigrants, were distrusted and looked down upon. Catholic men were excluded from labor unions, and denied benefits others weren’t. One of the reasons for the organization’s inception was to provide a support system for the widows of Catholic factory workers and coal miners who would have otherwise received no benefits, and another was to provide a fraternal network since Catholics couldn’t join unions or other fraternities.

Perhaps with your modern, open-minded perspective, you can say “yeah, but that’s no reason to beget more secrecy or exclusiveness”, but I honestly don’t think many Americans here can completely relate to the mindset of the early Knights because most of us have been raised in a very different America.

Ham Radio got rid of morse code for their upgraded classifications and that has been around since day one. Things can and do need to change with the times…

 

[vz71]

Ham Radio got rid of morse code for their upgraded classifications and that has been around since day one. Things can and do need to change with the times…

Actually, Morse is still required for nearly all amateur radio licenses.
No one got rid of it.

Which actually makes your analogy work well in my favor…there is nothing wrong with keeping secret certain things.

 

[teachccd]

Actually, Morse is still required for nearly all amateur radio licenses.
No one got rid of it.

Which actually makes your analogy work well in my favor…there is nothing wrong with keeping secret certain things.

I am a ham radio operator and so are members of my family. Now, we do not need morse code for our upgraded classifications. Recheck your sources and then rethink your answer… teachccd

Just a note from wikipedia:
The original amateur radio operators used Morse code exclusively, since voice-capable radio transmitters did not become commonly available until around 1920. Until 2003 the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) mandated Morse code proficiency as part of the amateur radio licensing procedure worldwide. However, the World Radiocommunication Conference of 2003 (WRC-03) made the Morse code requirement for amateur radio licensing optional.[9]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code#cite_note-8) Many countries subsequently removed the Morse requirement from their licence requirements.[10]

 

[Havard]

I don’t really see merit to analogy here, referring to the ham radio comment. The secrecy associated with the Knights pertains to risks and concerns particular to the Knights that modern Knights may either still feel are relevant, or at least feel are worth enough consideration so as not to bring about a change in tradition.

 

[Della]

Okay, first off, I meant no offense to anyone, especially not you, teachccd. I apologize for any words that offended. My intention was to get teachccd to open his mind and heart to the possibility that he may be coming at this the wrong way. When I last posted my blood sugar had dropped which tends to make me a bit crabby. I apologize for being too harsh.

I just wanted to give another example of secrecy in an organization that must be kept from those who have not participated–Cursillo. Cursillo is a weekend retreat, a renewal of faith which started in Spain in 1939. During the weekend some of what happens is to be kept secret. Why? So that it won’t be spoiled by those who have not yet participated. Cursillo is fully endorsed by the Church and is a wonderful experience of renewal–something I have personally attended.

Now, my dh went through before me, but he couldn’t tell me anything about it. Why? Because 1) it would spoil the experience for me and 2) because no matter what he got out of it his experience could never be just the same as mine. What might strike him as important and moving might not mean that much to me. Each one who goes through such experiences needs to have it for himself.

The KCs are a religoius Men’s Fraternal Society. The ONLY part of their organization that is secret is their ceremonies of initiation. The 4th Degree once let us wives and family members sit in on part of their initiation rites and frankly, it was nice, but didn’t mean all that much to me since I wasn’t the one being initiated.

Some may dismiss the experiences of the wives of the KCs, but we have a better understanding of what is asked of our men than those on the outside. In no way does their secrecy about their rites bother any of us. It’s such a minor part of their overall time as KCs that it’s hardly worth mentioning. It’s great for them, but is a one time deal at best. Three ceremonies to be a fully participating member. It’s a tempest in a teapot to make too much of it, really it is.

 

[vz71]

Recheck your sources and then rethink your answer… teachccd

Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

Nevertheless, the FCC website shows the license requirements have been relaxed.
Morse is now only required in one category of license.

 

[teachccd]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

Nevertheless, the FCC website shows the license requirements have been relaxed.
Morse is now only required in one category of license.

I’m not here to debate ham radio. I know that wikipedia is not a reliable source but it was correct here none the less. I did make you look!!