Knights of Columbus

[teachccd]

I guess something didn’t come across. I wasn’t comparing a Sacramental seal with a secret oath taken in an organization. Rather, my entire point was that there are, indeed, some secrets that can be kept. Because there are some secrets that can be kept (like for prudence), then keeping secrets is not contrary to the marital vows. Am I right or wrong? Secret keeping is not contrary to marital vows or being “one flesh”.

I believe that your wife can be trusted. Again, my point was probably not expressed very well. My main point was that it is a blanket promise not to tell because it would be too difficult to build in the exceptions.

Now, one might be able to argue morally whether you would need to keep the promise. One could argue, I think, that if it would destroy a marriage not to tell one’s wife, then the lesser of the two evils is to tell your wife.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding your points, and as a result am not answering your question.

No, you’ve done quite well. And I truly thank you. You see, my wife and I have a fantastic relationship that I could never describe with words. We share everything and I mean everything unless, like you say, it would be harmful or totally unnecessary. The ceremony was not harmful and definitely not unnecessary and I really want to share it with her. This is outside of what should be kept private in a marriage for the reasons that you speak of. I am now pretty sure that I am backing out of K of C and this forum pretty much set me straight on that. thank you and God bless you…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Maybe you didn’t mean this, or maybe I am misunderstanding you. However, the early Church required a spouse to keep the Mass and the Mysteries (Sacraments) secret from a non-Catholic spouse. Was this not “very Christian”?

Apples and oranges… My wife is VERY Catholic and this is a Catholic organization…

 

[RichT]

Perhaps if you took the time to read Parish Priest, the book about Fr. Michael McGivney, you might better understand the Knights and their history as an organization. There are resaons for the secrecy, that are rooted in how the ceremonials were developed. You need to understand the history of the why the Knights were even started and what was going on at that point in history. Fraternal organizations were all too common place back then, but all too often they included heavy drinking and other not so Christian activities. Guess what? They all had secret ceremonies. It’s the way it was. The secret ceremonies of the Kof C are part of the tradition of an organization that was started to help keep Catholic men off the streets and out of jail. They are certainly not meant to harm anyone, but yes, they are meant to remain secret.

One other thing I would suggest is attending a 1st degree ceremony as a spectator. See if you don’t feel a little different from a different point of view. I know I did. In fact, I learned more about the ceremony the second time, and developed a respect for it.

 

[teachccd]

What it seems you are saying (at least to me), is that secrets are incompatible with marriage. In your 1st post, you said that there are cases in which people can keep secrets:

So the question should be not whether secrets are compatible with a marriage, but rather if this particular secret can be compatible with marraige. Is that a correct understanding of the question?

If I were to witness a gruesome murder I may not want to share those details with my wife. Call it a secret or whatnot. This ceremonial secrecy does not compare to those things that a man may not tell his wife out of love or prudence… Do I not make myself clear?? Is it really that difficult to understand after 40+ posts???

 

[bmadamsberry]

Apples and oranges… My wife is VERY Catholic and this is a Catholic organization…

Maybe you can explain why it is apples and oranges. In the first case, the Church required spouses to keep secrets for, what could be argued, non-necessary reasons.

I would say that one could argue that this is an okay secret to keep. After all, it is not a secret that is essential to your marriage. It is prudential, because it allows for the ceremony to retain a ‘special’ air about it.

 

[teachccd]

Perhaps if you took the time to read Parish Priest, the book about Fr. Michael McGivney, you might better understand the Knights and their history as an organization. There are resaons for the secrecy, that are rooted in how the ceremonials were developed. You need to understand the history of the why the Knights were even started and what was going on at that point in history. Fraternal organizations were all too common place back then, but all too often they included heavy drinking and other not so Christian activities. Guess what? They all had secret ceremonies. It’s the way it was. The secret ceremonies of the Kof C are part of the tradition of an organization that was started to help keep Catholic men off the streets and out of jail. They are certainly not meant to harm anyone, but yes, they are meant to remain secret.

One other thing I would suggest is attending a 1st degree ceremony as a spectator. See if you don’t feel a little different from a different point of view. I know I did. In fact, I learned more about the ceremony the second time, and developed a respect for it.

I could never respect a ceremony more than the respect that I have for my wife. But get in line since almost everyone here is missing the point… God bless you and I am going to bed.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

How it affects my wife is not in question here since we both do not keep secrets from each other. She does respect the fact that I have to keep this secret but that is not what our 30 year marriage was built upon. This is a ridiculous concept and should be eliminated. I’m sorry but I think that it is like a cult and contains fear and mind control… I respect your fervency in recruiting but please note that not every man wants to be a part of an organization that cannot even be upfront about what takes place. I was reeled in and then made to keep secrets from my wife. I would have never joined had I known that and this thread would have never existed…

You were told that you were not binding yourself in any way that conflicts with your civil or religious duties. Regardless of whether it is the content of your secret or the the concept, if it really bothers you, it seems to me that it may be within the bounds of your promise to disclose it to your wife, but that should only be done after consulting with your grand knight and the chaplain of your council. Ask them for advice and guidance; it will probably be of a much higher quality than what you get from random people on the Internet (I include myself).

 

[bmadamsberry]

If I were to witness a gruesome murder I may not want to share those details with my wife. Call it a secret or whatnot. This ceremonial secrecy does not compare to those things that a man may not tell his wife out of love or prudence… Do I not make myself clear?? Is it really that difficult to understand after 40+ posts???

I might be misreading your posts, but it seems like anger is coming across (again, I might be misreading them). I hope that you aren’t getting angry about someone trying to understand your question, and giving up his time to help answer your question.

I might ask you why this does not compare to those things which are okay to not tell a wife?

 

[teachccd]

Maybe you can explain why it is apples and oranges. In the first case, the Church required spouses to keep secrets for, what could be argued, non-necessary reasons.

I would say that one could argue that this is an okay secret to keep. After all, it is not a secret that is essential to your marriage. It is prudential, because it allows for the ceremony to retain a ‘special’ air about it.

The Church required many things that have since changed if you are familiar with church history. Why do they change? You tell me.

Some might argue that this is an okay secret to keep from their wife but I’m not one of them…

 

[bmadamsberry]

The Church reuired many things that have since changed if you are familiar with church history. Why do they change? You tell me.

Some might argue that this is an okay secret to keep from their wife but I’m not one of them…

The Church changed the rule mainly out of a desire to attract more people to the Church and because the persecutions ended.

I might ask if you could tell me why this is a secret that does not fall into the category of acceptable?

 

[teachccd]

I might be misreading your posts, but it seems like anger is coming across (again, I might be misreading them). I hope that you aren’t getting angry about someone trying to understand your question, and giving up his time to help answer your question.

I might ask you why this does not compare to those things which are okay to not tell a wife?

I am very sorry that you cannot distinguish frustration from anger but there is abslolutely no anger here whatsoever. Frustration? Big time.

I already addressed your second question in many of my previous posts…

 

[teachccd]

The Church changed the rule mainly out of a desire to attract more people to the Church and because the persecutions ended.

I might ask if you could tell me why this is a secret that does not fall into the category of acceptable?

I might ask you why it is acceptable to hide from one’s wife what goes on in a Christian organization? In all my years of everything that I have done in the Church I was NEVER asked not to tell my wife anything. I considered becoming a deacon and that program includes the wives in ABSOLUTELY everything that is done thoughout the entire formation.

So, in reference to your first point, perhaps they might get rid of this secrecy stuff and attract more people to the Knights and yes the persecutions ended. Now what were to happen if Knight told of the ceremony? Does persecution of sorts come to mind?

 

[bmadamsberry]

I am very sorry that you cannot distinguish frustration from anger but there is abslolutely no anger here whatsoever. Frustration? Big time.

I already addressed your second question in many of my previous posts…

Actually, all you said was that it doesn’t fall into that category of ‘okay secrets’ (that’s not the best way to describe it). You’ve never posted, to my knowledge, why it doesn’t fall into that category.

 

[teachccd]

You were told that you were not binding yourself in any way that conflicts with your civil or religious duties. Regardless of whether it is the content of your secret or the the concept, if it really bothers you, it seems to me that it may be within the bounds of your promise to disclose it to your wife, but that should only be done after consulting with your grand knight and the chaplain of your council. Ask them for advice and guidance; it will probably be of a much higher quality than what you get from random people on the Internet (I include myself).

Well now, aside from one previous post from a wife, this may be the most reasonable post yet. thank you and I may take this into consideration. But mostly, thank you for not just reading but actually hearing what I had to ask. God bless you…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Actually, all you said was that it doesn’t fall into that category of ‘okay secrets’ (that’s not the best way to describe it). You’ve never posted, to my knowledge, why it doesn’t fall into that category.

Oh please, I am getting tired of repeating myself. It is in the entire thread. I really do have to go to bed… God bless you and thank you but I am drained.

 

[RichT]

I could never respect a ceremony more than the respect that I have for my wife. But get in line since almost everyone here is missing the point… God bless you and I am going to bed.

I don’t recall saying anything about either respecting or for that matter dis-respecting your wife. If that’s what you got out of my post, then perhaps a quick re-reading of it might help. I was simply attempting to offer a different point of view, but I should have remembered that is impossible if the person refuses to look at the other side, even if for a moment. You asked the question, I was simply offering a different suggestion as to why the ceremonials are kept secret. Sorry that I wasted our time. Good day…

 

[bmadamsberry]

I might ask you why it is acceptable to hide from one’s wife what goes on in a Christian organization? In all my years of everything that I have done in the Church I was NEVER asked not to tell my wife anything. I considered becoming a deacon and that program includes the wives in ABSOLUTELY everything that is done thoughout the entire formation.

So, in reference to your first point, perhaps they might get rid of this secrecy stuff and attract more people to the Knights and yes the persecutions ended. Now what were to happen if Knight told of the ceremony? Does persecution of sorts come to mind?

In reference to your first question, I would say that it is acceptable to hide because it’s not something essential or problematic to the marriage. It’s prudence is to keep the ceremony special for those that don’t know what happens. It is not something that would hurt a marriage (if it really is, then there is the caveat in the promise that you made in regards to your civil/religious duty that allows for you to reveal the ‘secrets’).

In regards to never being asked to keep something from your wife… there are some things you haven’t been exposed to (such as Confession). The deaconate programs do often invlude the wives in the entire formation… but of course if you were a deacon you would have to keep some things, maybe many things, from your wife. Such as things discussed in confidence. The ceremony of the KofC is, truely, something discussed in confidence. They are a shared discussion and moment between two people (you and the KofC). The other entity asks that the discussion be kept in confidence (similar to what one might experience as a deacon), and the other entity (you) agrees.

 

[Elizium23]

You were told that you were not binding yourself in any way that conflicts with your civil or religious duties. Regardless of whether it is the content of your secret or the the concept, if it really bothers you, it seems to me that it may be within the bounds of your promise to disclose it to your wife, but that should only be done after consulting with your grand knight and the chaplain of your council. Ask them for advice and guidance; it will probably be of a much higher quality than what you get from random people on the Internet (I include myself).

This.

If your Council has someone in the position of Advocate, he would be the one to consult about such a thing. The Advocate’s job is to stay informed about all rules and regulations of the Council, particularly so that meetings follow the “handbooks” issued for that purpose. If your Council has no Advocate, then defer to the Grand Knight.

One distinction between illicit secret societies and the Knights is that the Knights do not bind you in opposition to your civil and religious duties. The Order recognizes that when a conflict arises that our loyalty to the State and our loyalty to our Church are the paramount considerations.

 

[Catholic90]

When my father died, we notified his chapter in Miami, Fla. I grew up with the knowlege that the 4th degree always showed up for the wake and in full dress for the funeral of one of their brothers.

A whole “team” showed up for both the wake and the funeral.

Only 3 Knights came to my fathers rosary. After the prayers, they apologized that no Knights would be able to attend his funeral because a past Grand Knight from out of town had died an they had to attend his funeral. In addition, I grew up being told that when a 4th degree Knight passed away the origanization would donate a chalice in his name to a needy parish. When I asked about this on my fathers death, I was told “Oh, we don’t do that any more.”

They did for my husband 9 months ago when he died. His name was added to the chalice, and it was donated.

My brother was a past Grand Knight and when he died, I notified the K of C powers that be and was told that since his chapter no longer existed, and they really did not know him, they had no one to attend his funeral. However, his bar buddies from the local VFW and the American Legion saw fit to attend…So much for the pretentions of the K of C.

Hmmmm…my DH had bar buddies too…hole nuther can o worms there! That sort of explains why my DH died.

 

[Catholic90]

So I have to throw this out there…does your wife really CARE about what happens at the ceremony?

I know I didn’t! My late DH was a 4th degree, so he went to quite a lot of ceremonies in his day - some in jeans and sweaters, some in khaki pants, and some in tuxedos. He enjoyed it, he was with fellow Catholics, and he felt good about doing it.

Meanwhile, I honestly did not care what exactly went on! I did not need to know, I never asked, and he never told. We were both quite content! To this day, I honestly don’t care what happened during the ceremonies. All I know is it is an amazing group of men doing great Catholic charity work.

Don’t get hung up in the details. See the big picture.