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miguel_delgado
Guest
knights templar, are they good or evil??? as always, i want to hear from you.
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Cockney_Clive
Guest
Knights Templars are neither good nor evil as they no longer exist, having been suppressed by the Church and by the King of France in the 14th Century. :tiphat:
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Isidore_AK
Guest
The Templars were framed by Phillip, King of France. They were loyal to the Church fought for her in the East.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Yep, framed. Philip wanted their treasury.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
They *were * good, not evil. They are no longer an Order 
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miguel_delgado
Guest
ok guys, sorry, i will flagelate myself for the mistake, ok here it goes again:
knights templar, were they good or evil???
done, are you happy now???:whacky:
knights templar, were they good or evil???
done, are you happy now???:whacky:
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Yup. And still good.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Well just to put some balance into this thread: I’d say they started out to be one thing (good), turned into something else entirely (bad) and the pope excommunicated de Molay their head at the time and burned him at the stake. Philip was not sad at this news as he had his eyes upon their treasure as well as their high profile – but some escaped, a great deal of Templar treasure has still not been found and various groups and sects claiming descent from them still are around even unto this very day.
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Zooey
Guest
I would imagine that,like any group of people, they were probably made up of good guys, bad guys, & inbetween guys.
But
what do I know? I don’t meet a whole lot of knights templar 
wandering around here in upstate NY.
But
what do I know? I don’t meet a whole lot of knights templar wandering around here in upstate NY.
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wcknight
Guest
They were warrior monks who were loyal to the Pope.
However they built up a huge fortune for which some greedy noblemen wanted to confiscate.
Their job was to protect the holy land, however this was mostly undermined by a bunch of egotistical power hungry idiots from various European countries.
I think their intentions were mostly honorable.
The templar who was excommunicated was subjected to the witch trial type lunacy that was prevalent in the dark ages. :whacky: You are tortured to confess. If you confess they burn you at the stake, if you don’t confess they keep torturing you, not very good choices there. :bigyikes: :banghead:
However they built up a huge fortune for which some greedy noblemen wanted to confiscate.
Their job was to protect the holy land, however this was mostly undermined by a bunch of egotistical power hungry idiots from various European countries.
I think their intentions were mostly honorable.
The templar who was excommunicated was subjected to the witch trial type lunacy that was prevalent in the dark ages. :whacky: You are tortured to confess. If you confess they burn you at the stake, if you don’t confess they keep torturing you, not very good choices there. :bigyikes: :banghead:
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HagiaSophia
Guest
If I were you I’d keep reading on the subject.
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axolotl
Guest
There is also a Masonic sub-group (within the York right) that calls themselves Knights Templar. I think they think they are descended from this group. My father-in-law is one. He said such things as “The Catholics borrowed a lot of stuff from the Masons, like the sign of the cross”:whacky: :bigyikes: It’s hard not to bite one’s tongue sometimes. ( If ya sit there and bite your tongue, you’ve been for just sitting there, how rude and disrespectful, if you respond, you’re rude and disrespectful- 
) The Mason’s children’s organzation is called De Molays.
) The Mason’s children’s organzation is called De Molays.
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wcknight
Guest
I did but someone borrowed my book. It was a history of the Knights Templar. The knight in question was railroaded, and it was out of greed and not some heresy or witchcraft for which he was tortured.If I were you I’d keep reading on the subject.
wc
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Cockney_Clive
Guest
Knights Templars - good or evil? Well, the trading system of Medieval Europe would not have developed as it did, without them. They created the first clearing bank system.
Lets say two merchants meet in London. The Florentine merchant wants to purchase 500 bales of wool. They agree a price - 2000 Florins. Our Italian merchant has letters with him that say he is good for this money as he has significant deposits made with the knights Templars in Florence. They take these letters to the local Knights Templars and our London merchant gets his money.
This system was safer than carting a chest full of bullion clear across Europe, prey to bandits and rapacious nobles, war and pestilence.It also kept the merchants and others clear of the Jewish merchants/bankers, and kept them clear of the Usury laws as the Templars did not charge interest for this service.
It was when the system began to break down - due to the finite resources of the Templars failing to meet the demands of users, and the demands of nobles and monarchs to borrow money without deposits as the Jewish and more unscrupulous Christian bankers allowed them to (Usury) that the Templars got into political difficulties. This led to their suppression as an Christian Order.
Lets say two merchants meet in London. The Florentine merchant wants to purchase 500 bales of wool. They agree a price - 2000 Florins. Our Italian merchant has letters with him that say he is good for this money as he has significant deposits made with the knights Templars in Florence. They take these letters to the local Knights Templars and our London merchant gets his money.
This system was safer than carting a chest full of bullion clear across Europe, prey to bandits and rapacious nobles, war and pestilence.It also kept the merchants and others clear of the Jewish merchants/bankers, and kept them clear of the Usury laws as the Templars did not charge interest for this service.
It was when the system began to break down - due to the finite resources of the Templars failing to meet the demands of users, and the demands of nobles and monarchs to borrow money without deposits as the Jewish and more unscrupulous Christian bankers allowed them to (Usury) that the Templars got into political difficulties. This led to their suppression as an Christian Order.
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miguel_delgado
Guest
can you tell me the years of born-die of the order???
and who do you blame for the downfall of the order.
and who do you blame for the downfall of the order.
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Cockney_Clive
Guest
Hello Miguel, date of foundation of Knights Templars;1118, in Jerusalem when a small group of 5 knights took a Holy vow to protect the sacred sites of the Holy Land.
As to suppression; between 1307 and 1312 (it took that long for the Papal commission to arrive at a decision. Papal Apostolic Decree (‘Bull’) was issued in 1312. But the Secular powers (Phillip the Fair, King of France anyway) had closed all Templar sites and arrested many knight Templars by 1308.
As to why. Complicated my friend, very murky. It is related to the decline and fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. There were two military Christian Orders responsible for the Holy Land: the other was the Knight Hospitallers (of St. John) who still exist (in Europe anyway) as a secular nursing and hospital body.
The two orders were squabbling with each other over territory and precedence and who does what, while Jerusalem fell to the Saracens. This made their military effectiveness questionable. Proposals were made, at the Ecclesial Council of Lyons in 1248 to merge the two orders but it did not happen.
There were calls for further Crusades to win back the Kingdom of Jerusalem and money and men were required. It should be said that the Knights Hospitallers were spinning deceit and gall against the Templars. They had the ear of many monarchs, especially those of France and England. As I said in my last post, their was also money involved, and much jealousy.
Phillip, King of France had his eye on the Templar properties and treasure for himself although he persuaded the Pope, Clement V, a Frenchman and distant relative that this would pay for a new Crusade. Clement agreed that Phillip could go ahead and close the order down, which he did, on October 22 1307.
Anyway, the upshot was, that in the summer of 1312 the Grand Master of the Templars was burnt at the Stake for witchcraft and Apostasy, together with three of his lietenants. The charges were complete fabrications but the Grand Master knew what his ‘duty’ was; to sacrifice himself so that others might live. There were, or had been executions of other Knights but most of the Templar Knights were ‘paid off’ with Pensions and/or positions in the Hosptallers or Court or elsewhere. The treasuries were emptied, most of the wealth going to Phillip the Fair.
The stories of secret and, as yet unfound Templar treasure is almost certainly myth and without substance. That history may be found in a certain novel
but the real history is all together much more interesting although not half as entertaining.
Pax :tiphat:
As to suppression; between 1307 and 1312 (it took that long for the Papal commission to arrive at a decision. Papal Apostolic Decree (‘Bull’) was issued in 1312. But the Secular powers (Phillip the Fair, King of France anyway) had closed all Templar sites and arrested many knight Templars by 1308.
As to why. Complicated my friend, very murky. It is related to the decline and fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. There were two military Christian Orders responsible for the Holy Land: the other was the Knight Hospitallers (of St. John) who still exist (in Europe anyway) as a secular nursing and hospital body.
The two orders were squabbling with each other over territory and precedence and who does what, while Jerusalem fell to the Saracens. This made their military effectiveness questionable. Proposals were made, at the Ecclesial Council of Lyons in 1248 to merge the two orders but it did not happen.
There were calls for further Crusades to win back the Kingdom of Jerusalem and money and men were required. It should be said that the Knights Hospitallers were spinning deceit and gall against the Templars. They had the ear of many monarchs, especially those of France and England. As I said in my last post, their was also money involved, and much jealousy.
Phillip, King of France had his eye on the Templar properties and treasure for himself although he persuaded the Pope, Clement V, a Frenchman and distant relative that this would pay for a new Crusade. Clement agreed that Phillip could go ahead and close the order down, which he did, on October 22 1307.
Anyway, the upshot was, that in the summer of 1312 the Grand Master of the Templars was burnt at the Stake for witchcraft and Apostasy, together with three of his lietenants. The charges were complete fabrications but the Grand Master knew what his ‘duty’ was; to sacrifice himself so that others might live. There were, or had been executions of other Knights but most of the Templar Knights were ‘paid off’ with Pensions and/or positions in the Hosptallers or Court or elsewhere. The treasuries were emptied, most of the wealth going to Phillip the Fair.
The stories of secret and, as yet unfound Templar treasure is almost certainly myth and without substance. That history may be found in a certain novel
but the real history is all together much more interesting although not half as entertaining.Pax :tiphat:
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Cockney Clive:
Well someday check out the story of Pere Saunier and the church at Rennes—together with the art work of Pouisson which still has many in the art world speculating and studying…and as for a certain novel – haven’t got a clue …The stories of secret and, as yet unfound Templar treasure is almost certainly myth and without substance. That history may be found in a certain novel
Pax :tiphat:
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
miguel delgado:
- the Pope was indeed Peter’s successor, in his cowardice and in allowing the condemnation of the innocent. Very sad
It is pleasant to record that both pope and king died within a few months of the judicial murder (by burning alive, on trumped-up charges of heresy confessed to only under torture) of the last Grand Master of the Order. Evil men cannot escape the wrath of of God - not even if they are kings or popes. Men can be over-awed, but not God. ##
The way that the Pope folded, and did what Philip IV told him to, so that Philip IV could get his hands on their wealth, was truly evil. The suppression was a disgrace - it was carried through for a bad end, by bad men, in a bad way, and brought disgrace on all except the victims.
Talk about “abject” - the Pope was indeed Peter’s successor, in his cowardice and in allowing the condemnation of the innocent. Very sad It is pleasant to record that both pope and king died within a few months of the judicial murder (by burning alive, on trumped-up charges of heresy confessed to only under torture) of the last Grand Master of the Order. Evil men cannot escape the wrath of of God - not even if they are kings or popes. Men can be over-awed, but not God. ##
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Catholic_Heart
Guest
**I voted “good”, because they do so many good things…They actually paid for my cataract surgery, plus paid for a follow up surgery I needed. **
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HitF12
Guest
Catholic Heart said:
Not to diminish your need and the fact that they did do a good work… but the Shiners do lots of good work, and the fact is that they are Masons, which I personally equate with evil.
I know modern Templars are associated with Masons. Masons scare me. My grandfather left the Masons after he had his son (my father) because he didn’t want to pass that legacy on to his child.
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