Knowing abortion's wrong

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aball1035

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Does anybody feel like the majority of people who think abortion’s right can’t be argued with? I’ve had this feeling lately that it’s one of those facts that seems (to me) to be obvious-namely that abortion is wrong. It’s like if somebody denies 1+1=2. You can’t really argue with them, people just get it because it’s obvious. I think it’s like that with abortion. Is it just me or do others feel this way too?
 
I haven’t found it to be that way with all pro-abortion folks. I think it depends on the person. However, some people have such a strong emotional reaction to the issue (often because they have a personal connection to an abortion) that they can’t get past their emotions to reason about it.

Some people don’t want to consider it. Discovering that abortion really is wrong would threaten them in ways they don’t want to face. “There is none so blind as they that won’t see.”

Some people really aren’t logical thinkers, and can’t analyze why they agree with abortion, which makes trying to persuade them very difficult!

With other people, you can have a discussion about what reasons they consider make abortion permissible, and then approach each of those one at a time.
 
bedfordshire said:
Some people really aren’t logical thinkers, and can’t analyze why they agree with abortion, which makes trying to persuade them very difficult!
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I agree with this. This is the reason that we saw so many people vote for the pro-abortion candidates in the 2008 election. The candidates who were elected… were the “popular” choice, so many voters simply “went along” without thinking logically (or maybe even not at all) about the backlash it would cause to the innocent unborn. 😦

Sometimes, you can get their attention by simply saying "Abortion stops a beating heart ❤️ "
 
Well, do all religions teach that embryos have souls? It might be obvious to someone that believes they do that they are just as human as adults, but what about someone that doesn’t believe in souls, or believes the soul is attached at some later point (such as when the child moves in the womb or is born)?

Pro-abortion people often say well it’s just a bunch of cells, it doesn’t think, and without the belief in souls how can you convince them otherwise?
 
flyingfish said:
Well, do all religions teach that embryos have souls? It might be obvious to someone that believes they do that they are just as human as adults, but what about someone that doesn’t believe in souls, or believes the soul is attached at some later point (such as when the child moves in the womb or is born)?

Pro-abortion people often say well it’s just a bunch of cells, it doesn’t think, and without the belief in souls how can you convince them otherwise?
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Interesting question. Do you know the answer? I’m wondering what to say to those people who believe unborn babies are simply a bunch of cells.
 
This is a VERY good debate between John Stewart and Mike Huckabee. Huck does a great job of not dropping abortion into a religious argument. While Stewart doesn’t give per se he definitely back tracks some at the end say it’s the one liberal issue he really has a problem with… do they solve the issue, no but it shows how 2 intelligent men can have a good debate without getting angry. This is how we need to proceed in the Pro-Life movement IMHO…

blog.sojo.net/2009/06/24/jon-stewart-and-mike-huckabee-on-abortion/

So you will see that while not everyone who believes the other way won’t listen, a few will. We should start with those 🙂

Joe
 
jwashu said:
This is a VERY good debate between John Stewart and Mike Huckabee. Huck does a great job of not dropping abortion into a religious argument. While Stewart doesn’t give per se he definitely back tracks some at the end say it’s the one liberal issue he really has a problem with… do they solve the issue, no but it shows how 2 intelligent men can have a good debate without getting angry. This is how we need to proceed in the Pro-Life movement IMHO…

blog.sojo.net/2009/06/24/jon-stewart-and-mike-huckabee-on-abortion/

So you will see that while not everyone who believes the other way won’t listen, a few will. We should start with those 🙂

Joe
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Thanks for the link! It was really interesting. I’ve never watched Jon Stewarts show, but he seems like a fair man. Mike Huckabee should be president. Grr…(sorry, I guess I’m a bit bitter still over the 2008 election!)

aball1035-
I have alot of friends who are pro-choice. I was, until I saw an ultrasound when 15 or so. I still sometimes question my beliefs about abortion. What about mother’s life, rape, etc. Often I find holes in the pro-lfe side that drives me nuts, but I still always come back to the fact that it is an innocent life.

Alot of pro-choicers just don’t see the unborn child as a child, regardless of heartbeat or anything like it.
 
flyingfish said:
Well, do all religions teach that embryos have souls? It might be obvious to someone that believes they do that they are just as human as adults, but what about someone that doesn’t believe in souls, or believes the soul is attached at some later point (such as when the child moves in the womb or is born)?

Pro-abortion people often say well it’s just a bunch of cells, it doesn’t think, and without the belief in souls how can you convince them otherwise?
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The question is not when they get souls or whether they have souls. The question is whether they are individual and distinct members of the human species–homo sapiens. Biologically they are–beginning at conception. They are new and distinct human beings. The only question is, do we extend legal protection to all human beings, or only some?
 
I’ve heard it suggested… that we all need to stop using the term “pro-choice”. This term softens the gruesome reality of abortion. And it doesn’t really describe what the opposition desires. They want the personal freedom to decide if a baby… a HUMAN LIFE… lives or dies. :nope:

The term “pro-choice” is verbal engineering, which makes them sound noble, like they’re fighting for a legitimate, constitutional right. But they always forget about the rights of the FULLY HUMAN (and helpless) unborn victims. 😦

I’m for NOT letting them off the hook, with softened speech; Let’s say it like it is. They are pro-ABORTION.
 
JimG said:
The question is not when they get souls or whether they have souls. The question is whether they are individual and distinct members of the human species–homo sapiens. Biologically they are–beginning at conception. They are new and distinct human beings. The only question is, do we extend legal protection to all human beings, or only some?
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The problem with that is embryos don’t have consciousness. Secular folk don’t have issues with cutting off life support to adult human beings who are brain dead either. Whenever I have this argument with people that’s what it ends up coming down to.

But I think there is a chance to convince these people to be against late term abortions, when the baby’s brain is more developed.
 
A big part of the problem is that we all tend avoid difficult and troubling topics when we can.

We are so comfortable today in the US, even in these difficult times, we never go hungry, we are safe and have so much more than we can ever use.

**Every honest person knows that murdering an innocent baby is wrong! **

When we parse words and definitions, we can avoid the “Inconvenient Truth” that we must sacrifice and defend the most innocent among us, no matter what the cost to us personally!

**Pray for me so that i may have the courage to defend the innocent among us and the Truth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
flyingfish said:
The problem with that is embryos don’t have consciousness. Secular folk don’t have issues with cutting off life support to adult human beings who are brain dead either. Whenever I have this argument with people that’s what it ends up coming down to.

But I think there is a chance to convince these people to be against late term abortions, when the baby’s brain is more developed.
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Well, every human being has a beginning and an end. It’s quite true that if the unborn can be killed, so can the elderly, and the disabled. When we refuse to protect all human beings, no human being is safe.

I guess the moral of the story is: don’t ever lose consciousness, or you too can be killed. I recall reading about a man who had been in a coma for years, then suddenly recovered. He had been presumed unconscious for years. But he remembered everything that happened during his coma.
 
flyingfish said:
The problem with that is embryos don’t have consciousness. Secular folk don’t have issues with cutting off life support to adult human beings who are brain dead either.
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Respectfully, I would argue… “How do we know this for SURE?”. Who are WE to say? For all we know, embryos might have a very high degree of spiritual consciousness; they might be in continual conversation with Almighty God. The same goes for people who are quote “brain dead”; they also, could have a high degree of spiritual consciousness. Why is it, that so many people aren’t able to “think” outside the box?

I present this possibility, based on an experience within my own family. My brother-in-law was involved in a nearly fatal car accident… which left him with a permanent, traumatic brain injury. On the very night of his accident, he was pronounced “brain dead”; Nevertheless, a priest was called… to administer Last Rites. The ER nurse told him… “Don’t bother, he’s dead”. Thankfully, the good priest didn’t listen (they never do, God LOVE them :hug1:) … and proceeded to administer Last Rites.

Not only was my BIL NOT “dead”… but he made an astounding recovery… and was eventually able to return to work.

But even if we could prove that embryos… or the brain dead… have “no consciousness”… it still wouldn’t matter. They are fully human souls… created in the Image and Likeness of Almighty God; This is why Terri Schiavo’s family fought so hard to keep her alive.

God bless.
 
aball1035 said:
Does anybody feel like the majority of people who think abortion’s right can’t be argued with? I’ve had this feeling lately that it’s one of those facts that seems (to me) to be obvious-namely that abortion is wrong. It’s like if somebody denies 1+1=2. You can’t really argue with them, people just get it because it’s obvious. I think it’s like that with abortion. Is it just me or do others feel this way too?
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I agree that it is very difficult to reason with the lack of common sense and the lack of recognition of basic human dignity that most pro-abortion people display.

I have heard that most pro-abortion people have a direct connection to or responsibility for an abortion. I don’t know what the actual statistics are, and I assume it would be difficult to determine since people would lie about this. I have always known abortion was wrong.

Even when I was a radical leftist, I was anti-abortion. But this was not a popular stance among the people I was around at the time. I will never forget driving through Missoula, Montana with a vanload of hippies and seeing the pro-life people lining the roads with “Abortion Kills Children” signs. Someone in the van started complaining about it, and I said “Well, it’s a true statement.” I certainly got an earful! I know that at least two of the women in the van were post-abortive.

I would be interested to know of anyone here who used to be pro-abortion without having had an abortion or having helped someone procure an abortion. That would be the mindset that would be useful to understand. Those that are in denial or feel the need to justify their own past actions make more sense to me than someone who would deny natural law and truth, without any personal justification for doing so.
 
AnotherChance said:
I have heard that most pro-abortion people have a direct connection to or responsibility for an abortion.
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I don’t know if there’s a statistic or study to prove this statement or not, but I sincerely doubt its true. Many of the early pro-aborts are now pro-life. **Actually, the biggies Roe & Doe never were truly pro-aborts. They were used by the pro-aborts to further their cause. **Many rape victims choose life (that’s why the statistics on the # of rape conceptions & the # of rape abortions are so different). Most pro-aborts that I’ve heard speak (or read) don’t actually have any direct connection to abortion. Instead, many of them are actually ‘personally pro-life but think a woman should have a right to choose.’ I was on another forum site (Baby Center Community) discussing the abortion issue w/ many of these women. There were some who had repeated abortions and/or helped others procure abortions. However, many of the pro-aborts were pie-in-the-sky idealists. They really didn’t have effective counter-arguments to the pro-life arguments (any of them). They (the pie-in-the-sky ones) simply had no real-life experience to give reasoning. They believe all the lies told by the pro-aborts (pro-lifers want to control women, pro-lifers are all old men, pro-lifers are radicals, pro-lifers want to punish people for having sex, pro-lifers don’t support women, etc). I’m not sure if persistent arguments convinced any of these women to change sides, but I’m pretty sure some of them are at least fence-sitters needing just a little push from our side to be on the side of right!

Also, very few of them actually still believe the ‘blob of tissue’ lie know due to the advancement of genetics, stem cells, and other technology. They will admit it is a human, but they differ on when they think it actually deserves rights. Some even admit that it is just as human as the rest of us, but since it can’t live on its own, its a parasite that should be removed. They have to tell themselves these things to be able to sleep at night.
 
BiologyBrain said:
… Instead, many of them are actually ‘personally pro-life but think a woman should have a right to choose.’ …However, many of the pro-aborts were pie-in-the-sky idealists. …They believe all the lies told by the pro-aborts (pro-lifers want to control women, pro-lifers are all old men, pro-lifers are radicals, pro-lifers want to punish people for having sex, pro-lifers don’t support women, etc).
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Thanks for this useful perspective. I have noticed that a major strategy of the pro-aborts is to paint all pro-lifers as insane, raving lunatics. I think that in itself also keeps some people marginally pro-abort in the way you mention. They think they have no right to claim that something is just objectively wrong, no matter what, largely thanks to the moral relativism that is so pervasive today.
 
flyingfish said:
Well, do all religions teach that embryos have souls? It might be obvious to someone that believes they do that they are just as human as adults, but what about someone that doesn’t believe in souls, or believes the soul is attached at some later point (such as when the child moves in the womb or is born)?

Pro-abortion people often say well it’s just a bunch of cells, it doesn’t think, and without the belief in souls how can you convince them otherwise?
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You are right, it is as easy as 1 + 1. This assumes you are speaking to someone who can think/deduce conclusions logically. If you are, may I recommend the following book:

Three Approaches to Abortion: A Thoughtful and Compassionate Guide to Today’s Most Controversial Issue, by Peter Kreeft

Here, Kreeft settles arguments like the: ‘pre-born babies are just a bunch of cells’, in a pretty straight forward way using basic logic. I would recommend this book to any ‘pro-choice’ individual who believes their beliefs are grounded in logic - ask them to read the book and tell you where the pro-life logic is flawed.

If you are dealing with someone who is post-abortive, than they are in denial to a degree and are emotionally fragile - I would not recommend logical arguments as much as genuine compassion. For this may I recommend another book:

Changed Making Sense of Your Own or a Loved One’s Abortion Experience by Michaelene Fredenburg

This is a non-confrontational book that quite plainly tells the stories of those who have had abortions and how life changed for them afterward. This would be good for those who don’t or can’t think logically, as you can’t argue with someone’s personal feelings.

For a ‘pro-choicer’ to deny both sources would plainly assume they are both logically and sympathetically bankrupt.
 
I agree with a lot of posters on the first page that there a lot of people ill educated about abortion and not everybody has had any moral education on it at all. However, what you don’t realise certainly where I live is how common it is. Some people are living in denial because they may have had abortions themselves or have family members and friends that have had abortions. Although some people convert and become pro-life. However,there’s also the morning after pill and contraceptive pill which can act as an abortifacient which desentitises people aswell as IVF. It is extremely common.
 
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