"Knowing" God vs. "Believing" in Him?

[Light1111]

Hello to all!

Often in the CAF we discuss various topics of faith; in response to certain queries, a common reply comes in the form of a particular Biblical verse, or a particular tenet of the Faith.

Apart from the written word of God; apart from that which we are taught; I was wondering if members would like to share their personal experience of God? Have you felt His Hand in your life? Have you felt He was with you during trying times?

I feel most uplifted when I read of others’ experiences with “knowing” God. I have had some crises of faith lately and would welcome anyone to share their experiences that help them to ‘Know’ God.

A Rabbi once shared the following with me: When one drops his pencil, he “knows” it will fall. He doesn’t “believe” it will fall. Therefore a person “knows” gravity, through personal experience. He doesn’t “believe” in gravity. However, how many of us “know” God as opposed to merely “believing” in Him? Do we “know” Him as well as we “know” gravity?

I never quite thought of it that way before. The idea is quite beautiful. I do feel I ‘Know’ God, not that I merely “believe” in Him, yet some days are harder than others, when I think of the suffering of those dear to me. Belief is beautiful too – I have no issues with belief. There comes a time for me, however, when I suffer such crises of faith (as a fallible human!) that I find I ‘need’ the Knowing. ‘Knowing’ for me can sometimes fade . . therefore in charity and goodwill I ask others to please share with me their experiences of ‘knowing.’ I could use the lift!

Anyone wish to share?

Thank you, and peace to each of you!
Light1111

 

[faithfully]

Maybe define for us KNOWING, and Believing…

'Cause for example, I KNOW president Obama. Well, I’ve seen him on tv, we haven’t met in person. So I believe he exists. But I don’t necessarily Believe IN him…

So, I not only believe God is real, but I also believe IN him. By the grace of God, everything that I am shows this. Everything outside… the birds, the trees, flowers. The perfection of it all. What I’ve witnessed around me. Family with cancer cured at top speed, a child within our family given up on MANY times within the medical enviroment, only to survive for reasons they can’t give. A surgeon, who actually left his OR to tell the family to PRAY harder! He wasn’t sure how to get him through… but then did. A surgeon who was not confident in his own skills commanding prayer??? You can bet the rosaries were going… And then he pulled through AGAIN! Sometimes I think my free will has been removed. I’ve had God proven to me so many times that I’d have to turn my back on all my personal “proofs” to say otherwise. Which would equate to stating that I just don’t believe that 2+2 = 4. I’ve been blessed with much!

And I also think of that in terms of science. Newton’s law: For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. So when we witness the extreme in evil. I KNOW that the opposite in goodness also exists. IT MUST…

 

[Barbkw]

Three days before my Mom died in ICU, a policeman came to my door around 11 p.m. and told me that she was at Emergency and that I needed to get to the hospital right away.

I’d been away from the Church and really any thought of God for a long time.

But that night, walking in the dark, entering through the doors of the hospital, I felt the hand of the Holy Spirit on my shoulder, guiding me through step by step, one minute, two minutes, five minutes, etc.

My Dad was at the same hospital, in rehab from a massive stroke that he’d suffered two weeks earlier.

It was a horrible situation, telling him that Mom was dying.

I did a lot of growing up - spiritually that night and on into the next week and months.

God the Father, I most easily understand by listening to astronomers and astrophysicists as they attempt to explain the creation of the Universe and the Earth. That whole process is so detailed and intricate, enabling life to form here.

God the Son, He continues to be an all encompassing Mystery to me I’ve learned so much about Him from watching EWTN and understanding His prefigurement in the Old Testament. I never “got” any of the liturgical connections to the Mass when I was younger.

Thank you God for giving me time!

 

[The_Exodus]

A key component which needs to be thought about when discussing these two terms is the role of the will.

Belief obviously involves an action of the will, which moves the intellect to consider a thing as such and such, or involving such and such, etc.

Knowledge doesn’t seem to precede a movement of the will, but rather the intellect is moved to consent “forcefully,” as it were. Hence, believe with all your might that John is guilty, that doesn’t make him a murderer if he was framed.

Now, interestingly, laws of thinking or principles of logic, some have disputed, do not command intellectual assent. Even when Aristotle was arguing his law of contradiction as the most fundamental law of thought, some people claimed that it is not binding, as it were, on the intellect in such a way. Aristotle of course countered and said that “one can speak what one is not able to rationally affirm” since the will can move the mouth, etc.

I agree with Aristotle, that the intellect, upon first perceiving reality, knows “being” illatively, that is, without any deductions being involved. It doesn’t “reason to” to being, but rather knows it, by perception of it in the material universe around us. The law of contradiction is, as it were, a “principle of being,” by which it is held to mean that it is a fundamental, intangible part of being itself. This sounds a bit metaphysical (indeed it is), but the idea ought not to be dismissed as “medieval nonsense.” Without this principle firmly understood, the door is opened to subjective idealism and science is destroyed (the failure of many modern scientists to realize this is due, I say in all humility, to a weakness of their intellect, and a laziness and intellectual dishonesty with regard to philosophy.)

Thus reality has being and operates according to, as modern scientists would say, a “law;” i.e. that of contradiction. It just is how reality is. It’s what we are sensing when we open our eyes and see the dog sitting on the couch. There really is a dog sitting there, and he is there, and not anywhere else, because by being there, he is necessarily limited in his being to that one place.

Anyway, I’ve gone off on a tangent somewhat, but such topics often lead to the epistemological starting point of metaphysics.

 

[fhansen]

Hello to all!

Often in the CAF we discuss various topics of faith; in response to certain queries, a common reply comes in the form of a particular Biblical verse, or a particular tenet of the Faith.

Apart from the written word of God; apart from that which we are taught; I was wondering if members would like to share their personal experience of God? Have you felt His Hand in your life? Have you felt He was with you during trying times?

I feel most uplifted when I read of others’ experiences with “knowing” God. I have had some crises of faith lately and would welcome anyone to share their experiences that help them to ‘Know’ God.

A Rabbi once shared the following with me: When one drops his pencil, he “knows” it will fall. He doesn’t “believe” it will fall. Therefore a person “knows” gravity, through personal experience. He doesn’t “believe” in gravity. However, how many of us “know” God as opposed to merely “believing” in Him? Do we “know” Him as well as we “know” gravity?

I never quite thought of it that way before. The idea is quite beautiful. I do feel I ‘Know’ God, not that I merely “believe” in Him, yet some days are harder than others, when I think of the suffering of those dear to me. Belief is beautiful too – I have no issues with belief. There comes a time for me, however, when I suffer such crises of faith (as a fallible human!) that I find I ‘need’ the Knowing. ‘Knowing’ for me can sometimes fade . . therefore in charity and goodwill I ask others to please share with me their experiences of ‘knowing.’ I could use the lift!

Anyone wish to share?

Thank you, and peace to each of you!
Light1111

Wouldn’t it be awful if the only way we could ever know God is by the teachings we’ve learned* about* Him? It’s fairly normal to get caught up in the teachings and fail to ever know Him in any direct way, thinking that’s all there is. OTOH, only He can reveal Himself to us, as that revelation is beyond our capabilities solely by virtue of our own efforts. The Beatific Vision is the prime example of knowing or experiencing God directly, where we’ll “see Him face to face”, as scripture says.

The New Covenant prophecy of in Jeremiah 31 says that, in those days,
**“No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD." **

Some people have been blest with “glimpses” of God-direct experiences of Him in some manner. These are ineffable events but worth sharing anyway-in fact, that’s one of their main purposes. The experience is total satisfaction, total peace, being awash in totally infinite unconditional love-at least that’s the gift I received. Virtually impossible to stand in that Presence. Tears of joy and love and gratitude. Nothing like it.

 

[Barbkw]

I was listening to Fr. Corapi’s recorded EWTN program and to Fr. Barron on Youtube.

They were both talking about knowing God by realizing first the Beautiful, then by deepening our understanding of God by knowing Truth and finding what is True.

And then finally, knowing God by searching for what is Good.

Apparently, these steps were well known to St. Thomas Aquinas - Italian priest, philosopher, theologian, and Doctor of the Church - B. 1225 – D. 7 March 1274.

 

[tskrobacz]

In my view it is not possible to “know” God…we are not capable of understanding or grasping that which is far beyond our capacity to know. Our experience must lead us to trust that there is a higher power and that higher power is in fact personally invested in our life. When we reach that point then it becomes possible seek God acting in ALL of creation, in EVERY person and in EVERY moment. It is from that orientation that we come to love the gift of life and are ready to bear the trials and joys, openly trusting they are guiding us along the narrow path…

 

[Light1111]

Dear Barbkw, faithfully, The Exodus, fhansen, and tskrobacz,

Thank you for reaching out with your responses. I am so grateful.

Indeed, one can wrestle with the meanings of “belief,” “knowing,” etc. I enjoyed both the philosophic discussions you brought up, as well as your personal experiences with “knowing.”

Barb, your story was very touching. I’ll remember your family in my prayers with your permission. One of the best examples I’ve had in my life, of a person who really “knew” God, was my sixth grade algebra teacher, Miss Borowski. She was an ardent Catholic. She had taken St. Theresa of Avilla as her Patron Saint (Confirmation Saint), and often prayed Novenas to her.

Miss Borowski’s mother was dying with cancer, and she was very ill for a long time. Her suffering was tremendous. Miss Borowski said a Novena to St. Theresa, and the petition was: “Please end my mother’s suffering.”

For those not familiar with St. Theresa (AKA St. Therese), she was called “The Little Flower.” One of her “Signs” is the rose. For some believers, if one says a Novena to St. Theresa, and the prayer request is going to be granted, St. Theresa will “send a sign” of a rose, on the ninth day of the prayer. Then it is felt that the “answer” is a “Yes!” If one doesn’t see a rose, the answer is “No,” and in time, one may find why the request was not “granted” – the reason might be a good one, after all. All prayers are heard, but not all prayers are answered.

On the 9th day of the Novena, Miss Borowski woke up, said her Novena prayer, and spent a few minutes in quiet meditation. Then she opened her bedroom blinds to start the day.

Outside her bedroom window, a huge rose bush was in full, vibrant bloom. According to Miss Borowski, there had been no rose bush there the day before.

That day, her mother died.

We were only in the sixth grade, so a few of us started to cry, when she got to the end of her story. She looked surprised.

“Children!” She cried out. “This is not a sad ending! Do not forget – I asked St. Theresa to end my mother’s suffering. That she did. She did not cure my mother of her cancer – my mother was already at death’s door. Instead she did the one thing I could not do – she alleviated the pain, she ended the suffering. Finally my mother could reunite with our Lord.”

I’ve never met another person who lived in such faith. Her “knowing” was indeed a thing to behold!

Barb, your story reminded me of Miss Borowski! I doubt Miss Borowski is still with us, but her spirit lives on in each of my classmates who recall that moving story (and certainly within God’s Kingdom as well).

Peace to you, and thank you, each one of you, for sharing with me.
Light1111