KNOWing God

[lemonbeam]

Most atheists say they dislike Theists because Theists claim to KNOW that God exists, and that is arrogant. But why is it any less arrogant for an atheist to say that God does NOT exist?

And isn’t Agnosticism just a lazy form of atheism? It doesn’t require you to do anything. You are just in the middle of the road.

Here’s a quote from Father Barron:

‘The universal intelligibility of reality–which must be the starting point for all science-is a mystery that calls out for an explanation. Why should it be the case that laws of tremendous mathematical complexity should obtain at both the microcosmic and macrocosmic levels? Science can’t dispute this, precisely because it rests on it. I think that a very reasonable explanation is that these laws are the work of a supreme personal intelligence.’

 

[Tom]

Most atheists say they dislike Theists because Theists claim to KNOW that God exists, and that is arrogant. But why is it any less arrogant for an atheist to say that God does NOT exist?

I doubt most atheists dislike Theists. They simply disagree. I don’t think either side is arrogant, again, they simply disagree.

And isn’t Agnosticism just a lazy form of atheism? It doesn’t require you to do anything. You are just in the middle of the road.

An agnostic could consider the possibility of a god or gods, they just don’t know who or what it is. Is god the god of Israel? Or the Allah of Muslim? Perhaps the god of Joe the volcano? Maybe the female goddess of nature? All you and I can do is pray for each of them.

 

[morgantj]

Atheists either say they don’t believe god exist, or they are without theism. This is totally different then saying they “KNOW” a god doesn’t exist. Where as the theists are so bold to claim to not only KNOW god exist, but also to claim to know the mind of god. So yes, there is quite a difference.

And agnosticism is just the position that you don’t have enough evidence to sway you to belief or disbelief to either side.

And what Tom said.

 

[Maranatha33]

Knowing that God exists, or knowing that He doesn’t exist is indicative of one’s level of conviction. It is not unique to either perspective.
Your gross generalization statement of theists knowing the mind of God is completely false in regards to Christian theists. The Scripture is quite clear that man can not know the mind of God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (New International Version)

9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
** no mind has conceived**
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Simply put, generalizing by either side, is wrong.

 

[morgantj]

Knowing that God exists, or knowing that He doesn’t exist is indicative of one’s level of conviction. It is not unique to either perspective.
Your gross generalization statement of theists knowing the mind of God is completely false in regards to Christian theists. The Scripture is quite clear that man can not know the mind of God.

1 Corinthians 2:9 (New International Version)

9However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
** no mind has conceived**
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Simply put, generalizing by either side, is wrong.

If you cannot possibly know the mind of god and what is prepared for those who love him, it could be that he may punish you for loving him. You never know! If you don’t know the mind of god, how can you claim to know what god wants of you or doesn’t want? Believers all the time, claim to know what god wants and doesn’t want, they claim to know what’s on his mind. When their prayers are answered or not, they take these as answers from god, and they often claim that god wants me to blah blah blah, or god wants us to go house to house and donate blah blah blah. Yes, they DO claim to know the mind of god.

Also, If theists “know” god exist, then what do they need “faith” for?

 

[mlchance]

Most atheists say they dislike Theists because Theists claim to KNOW that God exists, and that is arrogant.

Put aside issues of most and dislike. Focus on the presumed arrogance. Why is claiming to know that God exists arrogant? The objection makes no sense. Either God has revealed his existence, or he hasn’t. If he has, noting this existence isn’t arrogant. On the surface, it seems as if this atheistic objection (like almost all of them) is fallacious.

For another example:

Also, If theists “know” god exist, then what do they need “faith” for?

False dilemma. The choice isn’t between knowledge and faith, for faith is a form of knowledge.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[morgantj]

False dilemma. The choice isn’t between knowledge and faith, for faith is a form of knowledge.

– Mark L. Chance.

This is a common religious apologists misconception or attempt at disinformation and obscurantism.

Faith is not a form of knowledge. It is a form of belief, characteristically a belief without evidence\proof. While It has the potential to lead to knowledge, it itself is not knowledge.

“There seems to be something profoundly deceptive and misleading about lumping together as acts of faith such things as belief in the Virgin birth and belief in the existence of an external world or in the principle of contradiction. Such a view trivializes religious faith by putting all non-empirical claims in the same category as religious faith. In fact, religious faith should be put in the same category as belief in superstitions, fairy tales, and delusions of all varieties.” - Carroll, Robert T

 

[mlchance]

Faith is not a form of knowledge. It is a form of belief, characteristically a belief without evidence\proof.

You’re ignoring the issue in an effort to keep your strawman propped up. Rather than insist on the definition of faith that a priori supports your argument, why not address what the Church says faith is?

Start with this ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=faith&s=SS and this newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

Church teaching is clear: Faith is a form of knowledge. It takes more than just saying “Nuh-uh” to refute what the Church says.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[morgantj]

why not address what the Church says faith is?

Church teaching is clear: Faith is a form of knowledge. It takes more than just saying “Nuh-uh” to refute what the Church says.

– Mark L. Chance.

HA! Why not address what the church says? Becuase the church is a biased source. The church is in the business of selling god and passing the collection plate. Why would I use such a biased source to tell me God exist and is very real, and that having “faith” in god is actually “knowledge.” Of course they are going to sell god and everything to do with believing it, that is what they do!

 

[mlchance]

HA! Why not address what the church says? Becuase the church is a biased source. The church is a business. It is selling a product called “god” and passing the collection plate. Why would I use such a biased source to tell me God exist and is very real, and that having “faith” in god is actually “knowledge.” Of course they are going to sell god and everything to do with believing it, that is what they do!

All sources are biased, such as Dr. Carroll that you approvingly quote above. Your objection doesn’t hold water. When asked to actually address Church teaching, you instead offer lame excuses and disparaging remarks about the Church’s motives.

Your failure to engage in meaningful debate has been noted.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Most atheists say they dislike Theists because Theists claim to KNOW that God exists, and that is arrogant. But why is it any less arrogant for an atheist to say that God does NOT exist?

yes it is, but, i hear a lot of you cannot know, yet we have evidence and reason, the 2 ingredients used for all intellectual endeavor. atheism tends to be a position of desire rather than one founded on reason.

And isn’t Agnosticism just a lazy form of atheism? It doesn’t require you to do anything. You are just in the middle of the road.

pretty much. in that intellectual laziness is the foundation of atheism in general, (see above)

its a failure to do more than a cursory inspection of the evidence, leading to all sorts of bad assumption. to wit: the parity of all religions. if you dont really know anything about them of course they all look the same.

Here’s a quote from Father Barron:

‘The universal intelligibility of reality–which must be the starting point for all science-is a mystery that calls out for an explanation. Why should it be the case that laws of tremendous mathematical complexity should obtain at both the microcosmic and macrocosmic levels? Science can’t dispute this, precisely because it rests on it. I think that a very reasonable explanation is that these laws are the work of a supreme personal intelligence.’

ask MindoverMatter about the philosophical/logical grounds of the intelligent nature of the creative actor

for me its just the mathematical difference the odds of a random act vs. an independent actor

 

[warpspeedpetey]

An agnostic could consider the possibility of a god or gods, they just don’t know who or what it is. Is god the god of Israel? Or the Allah of Muslim? Perhaps the god of Joe the volcano? Maybe the female goddess of nature? All you and I can do is pray for each of them.

and yet the major religions all say that is a violation,

if you know to little concerning faith to not know that then, how can you really be a firma theist or agnostic?

doesn’t one need to exactly what it is that he doubts?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Atheists either say they don’t believe god exist, or they are without theism. This is totally different then saying they “KNOW” a god doesn’t exist. Where as the theists are so bold to claim to not only KNOW god exist, but also to claim to know the mind of god. So yes, there is quite a difference.
.

theists hardly claim to know the mind of G-d.

and frankly if an atheist goes sso far as to publicly support disbelief i cant see how that doesn’t become the equivalent of “knowing” there is not a G-d, regardless of semantics.

 

[Maranatha33]

Theists understand that there is a major difference between knowing God’s mind and knowing God’s will. You seem to be confusing these two characteristics. God has given us, through His Word, what His will is for us. Nowhere are we to claim that we know His mind. His mind is so far above us that He spoke the entire universe into existence. I surely don’t know how to do this, do you? At this point, non-theists give us the “something from nothing” scenarios, aka darwinian evolution.

Actually, believers do know that God will not punish us for loving Him. In Christian theism, we learn God’s attributes. Love, kindness, mercy, justice, and grace are examples of His compositional characteristics. For God to punish unjustly, it would be outside of His stated attributes, which is impossible, as it is sin, and God will not even be present around any sinful actions.

{notes: the only theism i am referring to is Christian, and God is the triune God of the Bible.}

We know what God wants or doesn’t want through His will as stated in the Scriptures.

“Believers all the time…” This gross (and incorrect) generalization begs the question, which and how many believers are you referring too? Those in your hometown, state, country, or the world? Are you referring to a particular denomination? If so, which one(s)? And by adding “Yes, they DO claim…” this seems to imply that you are talking about all Christian believers, worldwide. That is about 3 billion people, with over a third of those being Catholic. Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and say the majority, that is still 1.5 billion people. Have you queried that many believers? If not, by what authority do you speak?

Once again, you have proclaimed your knowledge in generalizing that Christians are to “blah, blah, blah”. However the “God wants us to go house to house and donate blah, blah, blah” can be addressed as a tangible statement. This action must be incorporated into individual denominational doctrine. Having personal experience with both Catholic and Protestant doctrine to a large degree, I can state that neither denomination has “going door to door to collect donations” in their bylaws. There is only a small minority of denominations that may have this statement in their individual doctrine.

Faith is the process we use to “know” that God does exist.

Hebrews 11:1

By Faith
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

If you get rid of the generalizations and venom, I believe you will understand others differing perspectives, and explaining your own perspective, much easier. I hope this will be the case.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

If you cannot possibly know the mind of god and what is prepared for those who love him, it could be that he may punish you for loving him. You never know!

we know from scripture

If you don’t know the mind of god, how can you claim to know what god wants of you or doesn’t want? Believers all the time, claim to know what god wants and doesn’t want, they claim to know what’s on his mind

 

[warpspeedpetey]

HA! Why not address what the church says? Becuase the church is a biased source. The church is in the business of selling god and passing the collection plate.

you may have us confused with some of the “prosperity” protestants. to be catholic is to suffer.

Why would I use such a biased source to tell me God exist and is very real, and that having “faith” in god is actually “knowledge.” Of course they are going to sell god and everything to do with believing it, that is what they do!

 

[morgantj]

All sources are biased, such as Dr. Carroll that you approvingly quote above. Your objection doesn’t hold water. When asked to actually address Church teaching, you instead offer lame excuses and disparaging remarks about the Church’s motives.

Your failure to engage in meaningful debate has been noted.

– Mark L. Chance.

If you think asking your opponent to acknowledge the church as a credible source to define words and to ignore the churches agenda and bias for your argument as contributing to what you apparently think qualifies as a meaningful debate, then yea, I will fail to engage in such a debate with you.

 

[morgantj]

 

[morgantj]

theists hardly claim to know the mind of G-d.

and frankly if an atheist goes sso far as to publicly support disbelief i cant see how that doesn’t become the equivalent of “knowing” there is not a G-d, regardless of semantics.

Regardless of semantics? “Faith” and “knowing” are not the same thing. If you believe they are, than I “frankly” ask that you start saying that you “know” where you would normally say you “believe” or have “faith.” Why the hesititation? Because they are not the same. To make the the two terms equivalent just to fit the needs of your faith or argument is quite dishonest. Shall we also say that we don’t see how borrowing “doesn’t become the equivalent” of stealing. regardless of semantics?

Do you also disregard the semantics of the bible?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You are right I know very little about the “legitamacy” of this, because scripture, scripture, scripture… written by man doesn’t doesn’t make it legit, and I have yet to see any evidence.

?

little confused here. you seem to be talking about the legitimacy of scripture, where as i was speaking about the legitimacy of faith in general.

that said, there is plenty of mathematically precise evidence as to the legitimacy of Christain Scripture in general.

in the old testament, prophecies were written by a number of people, people who lived at different times, spoke different languages, belonged to different cultures, and lived far apart both in time and distance.

yet they were fulfilled in the person of Christ centuries after the fact.

there were several dozen prophecies, many very specific as to place of birth, lineage, manner of death, various specific situations, etc.

these claims are unique to Christianity, they provide a mathematical certainty to the validity of Christianity.

you didn’t think that Christains just believed for no reason, or that the martyrs died for opinion?

i assure you that we are as intelligent and capable of critical thought, as any others,

there is a reason we believe.