Kolyva, East and West

  • Thread starter Thread starter theweeper
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

theweeper

Guest
I have been looking into the origins of the use of koliva in the christian church. It is widespread in the Orthodox Church but not in the Roman Catholic Church (with the exception of those “eastern rite” churches). I recently read that the west condemned the practice but there was no reference for this. Does anyone know of any canon or some other writing in regards to the use of koliva? Also I read that St. John Chrysostom made comments to the effect that “offering” koliva was idolatrous but again there was no reference.
 
I have been looking into the origins of the use of koliva in the christian church. It is widespread in the Orthodox Church but not in the Roman Catholic Church (with the exception of those “eastern rite” churches). I recently read that the west condemned the practice but there was no reference for this. Does anyone know of any canon or some other writing in regards to the use of koliva? Also I read that St. John Chrysostom made comments to the effect that “offering” koliva was idolatrous but again there was no reference.
It’s food. Why it would have been “condemned” by anyone, whether in the West or St. John Chrysostom?

Further, the origins are Greco-Levantine, so why would one even think it would be used in the West?
 
condemned foods would mostly be those sacrificed to idols. there were pagan traditiions of offering boiled wheat (sometimes mixed with nuts and seeds and sometimes made into cakes) to the dead and other. this does seem to be a forerunner to the christian use of koliva with a new meaning of course. also there was a sect of mary worhippers called kollyridians that offered koliva in the name of Mary; they were condemned by St. Epipanius in his Panarion. if we have western church fathers or any church fathers speaking about koliva and/or memorial services i’m having trouble finding quotes. anyone?
 
Even Wikipedia calls it obscure. If it existed, it was a localized cult that obviously didn’t last long.

Well, anyway, good luck. 🤷
 
perhaps something is getting lost in translation here. koliva is anything but obscure. the kollyridians were an obscure cult. but that is neither here nor there. what i’m asking is: do we have any reference by any church father to the very widely held tradition of blessing koliva during the memorial services for the departed and distributing it amongst the faithful? i have yet to find any, either in support of the practice or against it.
 
In the fourth century, during the Great Fast, the apostate emperor Julian had food in the markets of the imperial city contaminated with blood from sacrifices to idols, rendering it unfit for consumption by Christians. The holy martyr Theodore Tyron appeared to the bishop and instructed him to tell the faithful to eat kutiya/kolyvo instead, so we still eat it on the first Saturday of the Great Fast in commemoration of this miracle (obviously it would have been easily prepared from household stocks of stored wheat).

Wheat also symbolises resurrection and new life (“except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die…”) so the use of kolivo at commemorations of the departed is apposite.

Anyway, it tastes good! Even though it is likely it has pagan origins we don’t really bother about that aspect - that belongs to the long distant past.
 
rowlands,
yes thank you. i was aware of the connection with St. Theodore and the saturdays and other feast where koliva is used. I think (and I could be wrong about this) that the sharing koliva at the memorial service or funeral service predates St. Theodore. Also there doesnt seem to be a link between St. Theodore’s story and how it is most commonly used today ie. the memorial service for the departed. I’m still left guessing about when and how this custom developed and when it was excepted whole heartedly by Orthodox Christians.
 
Kolyva is also very popular with the Southern Italians. It is traditionally served on the feast of St. Lucy, as well as a number of other days. I’m not sure if this is a remnant of their Byzantine heritage as most of Southern Italy was originally Byzantine. 🙂 I have also see it served at Italian funeral meals (Roman Catholic) so who knows?
 
Kolyva is also very popular with the Southern Italians. It is traditionally served on the feast of St. Lucy, as well as a number of other days. I’m not sure if this is a remnant of their Byzantine heritage as most of Southern Italy was originally Byzantine. 🙂 I have also see it served at Italian funeral meals (Roman Catholic) so who knows?
The traditional Italian pasticciere di grano (aka pizza grana) that is frequently made for Easter is quite similar in ingredients if not in presentation.
 
Ive had pizza grana (yum yum) but what I’m taliking about is just like a greek Kolyva. Boiled wheat sweetened with honey, nuts, Jordan almonds, coconut pomegranate seeds orange blossom water or rosewater whatever ya want. Simply delish!!
 
I have been looking into the origins of the use of koliva in the christian church. It is widespread in the Orthodox Church but not in the Roman Catholic Church (with the exception of those “eastern rite” churches). I recently read that the west condemned the practice but there was no reference for this. Does anyone know of any canon or some other writing in regards to the use of koliva? Also I read that St. John Chrysostom made comments to the effect that “offering” koliva was idolatrous but again there was no reference.
The West OUGHT to be looking more at how they absolutely TRASHED their Liturgy after and as a result of Vatican II and leave us the heck alone!!!

Clean your own house up first, Westerners!!!
 
Thank you Ciero. I too suspect this is a hold out from their byzantine past.
For those interested this is what I’ve found thus far.
The funeral meal usually hosted by the family was common in both Judaism and pagan religion. however the pagans alone were very big on laying out food and drink, money, gifts, crowns of flowers, etc. for the dead at graveside as offerings or appeasement or whatever.
Augustine condemns the graveside practice of offering things to the dead. He makes the point that the dead have no need of such things and it is the living poor that should receive our gifts. "He linked care for the dead with care for the living, bringing together, in a sense, two “invisible: ends of the community”
Chrysostom too condemns the practice of lighting candles at the tomb, offering food and clothes on the 3rd, 9th, and 14th days after death. He too says that the dead don’t need this stuff but the poor certainly do. Later Gregory Nazianzen disapproves of the libations and first-fruit offerings still going on by the graves.
Also the apostolic constitutions warned Christians not to overindulge at after funeral meals (parties) but it did not completely forbid them. Somehow the practice of having koliva at the grave continued, but not as an offering to the dead but to the living. What was once a party full of drinking and dancing changed into a memorial meal shared on the various days (3rd, 40th, etc) after the death of a Christian, each day having a very Christian significance.
My sources were Alexious, The Ritual Lament in the Greek Tradition and Paxton, Christianizing Death.
I still see a lot of “offerings” left at shrines I wonder what the Fathers would say to this?
 
kolyva is like “kutia” in Ukrainian but in Ukrainian tradition I have never seen any mention of it being used at funerals, etc, only at Christmas time. In Ukrainian tradition, “kutia” is the first meals of the traditional Christmas Eve Dinner (Sviat’ Vechir). Traditionally the head of the house might traditionally throw a spoon of kutia up to the ceiling. If it stuck, it would be a good year. 😉 But it was all for fun if one actually threw it. Not required. This is the only mention of kolyva/kutia for Ukrainians, on Christmas Eve.

one recipe: recipezaar.com/Ukrainian-CHRISTMAS-KUTYA-77525

🙂
 
kolyva is like “kutia” in Ukrainian but in Ukrainian tradition I have never seen any mention of it being used at funerals, etc, only at Christmas time. In Ukrainian tradition, “kutia” is the first meals of the traditional Christmas Eve Dinner (Sviat’ Vechir). Traditionally the head of the house might traditionally throw a spoon of kutia up to the ceiling. If it stuck, it would be a good year. 😉 But it was all for fun if one actually threw it. Not required. This is the only mention of kolyva/kutia for Ukrainians, on Christmas Eve.

one recipe: recipezaar.com/Ukrainian-CHRISTMAS-KUTYA-77525

🙂
The many Ukranian churches Ive attended ( both catholic & orthodox ) here in the US do use kutia (koliva) at funerals and memorials. Ive seen it made with both wheat and rice by the Ukranians. Never seen rice used by anyone else.
 
The many Ukranian churches Ive attended ( both catholic & orthodox ) here in the US do use kutia (koliva) at funerals and memorials. Ive seen it made with both wheat and rice by the Ukranians. Never seen rice used by anyone else.
Wow. That’s really interesting. It’s never done in our Ukrainian Catholic Churches in Canada. I wonder if all Ukrainian Churches in the U.S.A. do this, or just some. Interesting.
 
cuccia? i’ve heard that something called cuccia like koliva is made on St. Lucy’s day. anyone?
 
cuccia? i’ve heard that something called cuccia like koliva is made on St. Lucy’s day. anyone?
It is exactly like Kolyva, boiled wheat sweetened (usually with honey), nuts and dried fruit added. Sometimes flavored with spices and/or rosewater. Delicious!!🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top