Korah, Luther and Calvin

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Annie39

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In numbers 16-17 Korah and his followers were swallowed up by the earth as a punishment from God for attempting to usurp Moses’ authority given by God. As Catholics we believe that Peter was given the Keys of authority. I searched the internet looking for an explanation why Luther and Calvin et al. were not similarly punished. BTW, I ask this question because it was asked of me when I told my son who attends a Calvinist Church about the incident.

Thanks,
Annie
 
Annie39 said:
In numbers 16-17 Korah and his followers were swallowed up by the earth as a punishment from God for attempting to usurp Moses’ authority given by God. As Catholics we believe that Peter was given the Keys of authority. I searched the internet looking for an explanation why Luther and Calvin et al. were not similarly punished. BTW, I ask this question because it was asked of me when I told my son who attends a Calvinist Church about the incident.

Thanks,
Annie
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Because the punishment in the new law is eternal.
 
Annie39 said:
Thank you for your reply. Does the bible or tradition indicate that Korah’s punishment was not eternal?

Annie
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When they died they went to Sheol (the Limbo of the Fathers) where they would have heard the preaching of Christ and had an opportunity for heaven. When we die we go immediately to judgement and from there to heaven hell or purgatory.
 
How does he know it didn’t happen at their individual judgment?

Turn it around. By the same reasoning, does that make Mohammed right?
 
So his argument goes something like this: In the Bible, God’s archenemies are visibly and miraculously punished by God, therefore, if the Protestant Reformers were archenemies of God, they should have been visibly and miraculously punished by God.

But for this argument to work, all archenemies of God, both in the Bible, and throughout history, would have to have been visibly and miraculously punished by God, which they obviously haven’t all been. Punishment of that kind is extraordinary, and less frequent under the New Law (though it does happen, as when Ananias fell dead before S. Peter).
 
Well stated, AO.

Therefore, all unpunished rebels and heretics after Korah are…right?
 
Ad_Orientem said:
So his argument goes something like this: In the Bible, God’s archenemies are visibly and miraculously punished by God, therefore, if the Protestant Reformers were archenemies of God, they should have been visibly and miraculously punished by God.

But for this argument to work, all archenemies of God, both in the Bible, and throughout history, would have to have been visibly and miraculously punished by God, which they obviously haven’t all been. Punishment of that kind is extraordinary, and less frequent under the New Law (though it does happen, as when Ananias fell dead before S. Peter).
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Terrific answer Ad Orientem. I wish you had been sitting on a chair next to me at that moment.

Thanks,
Annie
 
Annie39 said:
In numbers 16-17 Korah and his followers were swallowed up by the earth as a punishment from God for attempting to usurp Moses’ authority given by God. As Catholics we believe that Peter was given the Keys of authority. I searched the internet looking for an explanation why Luther and Calvin et al. were not similarly punished. BTW, I ask this question because it was asked of me when I told my son who attends a Calvinist Church about the incident.

Thanks,
Annie
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Look at your presuppositions. You also display a profound lack of understanding of how Luther and Calvin saw themselves as opposed to how Korah saw himself, as well as missing the difference between being under law and under grace.

Protestants are well aware of this incident. If what you are saying is valid, then the same puzzle applies to the Orthodox, the churches of the East, and everyone viewed as schismatic by the Catholic Church. There would be no logical reason to limit it to Calvin and Luther.
 
Tomyris said:
Look at your presuppositions. You also display a profound lack of understanding of how Luther and Calvin saw themselves as opposed to how Korah saw himself, as well as missing the difference between being under law and under grace.

Protestants are well aware of this incident. If what you are saying is valid, then the same puzzle applies to the Orthodox, the churches of the East, and everyone viewed as schismatic by the Catholic Church. There would be no logical reason to limit it to Calvin and Luther.
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Well Tomi I would appreciate if you would explain how Luther and Calvin saw themselves as opposed to how Korah saw himself. Also, how did you come across this information? Did either Calvin or Luther write about how either one saw himself? Is there anything in scripture or tradition that refers to how Korah saw himself? If so. Where can I read this.

Thank you,
Annie (ex-Lutheran LCMS)
 
Annie39 said:
Well Tomi I would appreciate if you would explain how Luther and Calvin saw themselves as opposed to how Korah saw himself. Also, how did you come across this information? Did either Calvin or Luther write about how either one saw himself? Is there anything in scripture or tradition that refers to how Korah saw himself? If so. Where can I read this.

Thank you,
Annie (ex-Lutheran LCMS)
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Anyone who is at all acquainted with Reformed or Lutheran thought knows that both Luther and Calvin did not regard themselves as rebels but as reformers, and there was no equation of Moses with the Pope, but rather a regard of the Catholic Church as a corrupt institution that buried the gospel.

You can read about Korah in Numbers 16. Calvin, in his commentaries (1.8.5) condemns the dreadful rebellion of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

Korah recognized the authority of Moses as being God-given. In contrast, Calvin and Luther did not consider themselves as setting up any sort of rival papacy at all, and did not regard the papacy as having been God-given, or if they did, it had sunk into corruption long ago.

There is no equivalence between Korah and the reformers. The idea that there is is absurd and silly.
 
Tomyris said:
Korah recognized the authority of Moses as being God-given. In contrast, Calvin and Luther …] did not regard the papacy as having been God-given, or if they did, it had sunk into corruption long ago.
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It’s degree of corruption was irrelevant. Jesus told his followers to obey the pharisees even as he denounced their practices as corruptions. If authority is from God then obedience to it is owed to God.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
It’s degree of corruption was irrelevant. Jesus told his followers to obey the pharisees even as he denounced their practices as corruptions. If authority is from God then obedience to it is owed to God.
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And the Levitical priesthood has been done away with, and the authority of the Pharisees in the church is no more. We have the example in Acts (5:28ff) of the apostles stating they must obey God rather than men. - we must obey God rather than men, as Peter set the example. Authority from God is to be obeyed - but when that authority acts in a manner contrary to God, it must not be obeyed. When the Church sets itself in opposition to divine decree, should you obey God or the Church?
 
I’m also curious as to whether it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church that the Pope is equal to Moses and that Luther and Calvin behaved in a manner worthy of the condemnation Korah received. Please point me to the official teaching of the Catholic Church on these things, or are you going off on your own here theologically and promoting teachings as Catholic that are not Catholic?
 
But if I accepted the opening premise about Calvin, etc., I would point to Romans 2:4 as to why they were not immediately zapped.
 
Tomyris said:
I’m also curious as to whether it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church that the Pope is equal to Moses and that Luther and Calvin behaved in a manner worthy of the condemnation Korah received. …]
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It is the official teaching of the Lord that the least in the kingdom are greater than Moses.
 
Tomyris said:
And the Levitical priesthood has been done away with, and the authority of the Pharisees in the church is no more. We have the example in Acts (5:28ff) of the apostles stating they must obey God rather than men. - we must obey God rather than men, as Peter set the example. Authority from God is to be obeyed - but when that authority acts in a manner contrary to God, it must not be obeyed. When the Church sets itself in opposition to divine decree, should you obey God or the Church?
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The pharisees were to be obeyed until all of the law and the prophets were fulfilled in Christ. Remember also that Peter had the authority by then and not the pharisees.
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
The pharisees were to be obeyed until all of the law and the prophets were fulfilled in Christ. Remember also that Peter had the authority by then and not the pharisees.
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Now we are discussing Petrine authority, which is within the thread’s scope. There is a presupposition as to what that authority entailed that needs to be looked at in order to discuss the reasons for the non-zapping, I suppose, if we attempt to keep on thread.

Peter’s authority was the same as his brother apostles and his apostolic authority died with him. He had a primacy, yes, but not an authority over the other apostles. I know you disagree, but there it is. 🙂
 
Inego_de_Loyola said:
It is the official teaching of the Lord that the least in the kingdom are greater than Moses.
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And Luther and Calvin were both baptized in the Catholic Church, making them Catholics, no? SO they were both greater than Moses. This would be another way the situations differ. Thank you for pointing that out.
 
Tomyris said:
And Luther and Calvin were both baptized in the Catholic Church, making them Catholics, no? SO they were both greater than Moses. This would be another way the situations differ. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Cafeteria Catholics, …& possibly true apostates to the faith & Church.
 
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