Koran confirms the Gospel but attacks trinity

[koranist]

Does the Koran say Torah and Gospel corrupted?

Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say “Islam” says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of Islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

**But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- **Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)

Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord…" (Surah 5, Al Ma’idah, verse 68)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A’raf, verse 159)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal,** confirming the revelation which is with you**, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, “Believe in what God Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:”** yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. **Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?”

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran:

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee… (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from God,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.

2.80 And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: “Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?”

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed “oral” traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.

 

[koranist]

Wikipedia:

The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism’s emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.

The Koran, like Jesus in the Gospel, attacked the Talmudic excesses which the Pharisees(Rabbinic Judaism) believed is a revelation along with the Torah. In the Gospel there was a confrontation between the Pharisees and Jesus:

The Pharisees and the scribes asked Jesus, "Why don’t your disciples follow the traditions taught by our ancestors? They are unclean because they don’t wash their hands before they eat!" He told them, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites. As it is written, 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is worthless, because they teach human rules as doctrines. Then he said to them, "You have a such a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your own tradition!.(Mark7.5-9)

Like Judaism, Islam became sectarian and introduced a concept known as the Sunnah(oral traditions). It was introduced by the Sunnis about a century and a half after Muhammad’s death. Neither the prophet nor his companions left any text except the Koran. They refer to the oral traditions as hadith, meaning narrations. It abrogated many of the Koran’s teachings and added many legalistic and ritualistics concepts not seen in the Koran. Shariah law is based mainly on the hadith.

As far as the trinity doctrine it was introduced in the 3rd century after Jesus the Messiah by the Roman empire in the nortorius council of Nicea.

So what does the Koran say about Jesus?

When the angel said, "**Mary, God gives you a good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, -high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be, “lord” said Mary "How shall I have a son, seeing no mortal has touched me? **"Even so, he said “God creates what He will”. When he decrees a thing He but say to it, “Be”, and it is. (Al-Imran 3:45-47)

"Then she brought the child to her folk, carrying him, and they said, "Mary, you have surely committed a monstrous thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, nor your mother a woman unchaste. Mary pointed to the child; but they said, 'Hoe shall we speak to one who still in the cradle, a little child. And he said, 'Lo, I am God’s servant, God has given me the Book and made me a Prophet Blessed He has made me ,wherever/may be; and He has enjoined me to prayer, and to give the alms so long as I live, and likewise to cherish my mother; He has not made me arrogant and wicked. Peace be upon me, the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised up alive. "Maryam 19:29-33)

5.110.**Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee **when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’

However the Koran says about the trinity:

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God’s sight is as Adam’s likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, ‘Be’ and he was. (Al-Imran 3:59)

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth.** The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not ‘Three’. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God**. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

The Koran confirms the Gospel and confirms the virgin birth but says Jesus was a mortal and a messenger like many messengers before him and says the Gospel speaks the truth.

18.16-26 **Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: “I seek refuge from thee to, Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God.” He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed.” So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. ** And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): “Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!” But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. “So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to, Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being’”

So what does the Gospel say?

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

This is what the gospels have to say:

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is [a]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” - Matthew 3:16-17

This passage can be found in the other 3 gospels under Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:22, John 1:32

And in Luke we have:

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

And back to Matthew:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - Matthew 28:19

According to United Bible Societies: The Greek New Testament ISBN 3-438-05110-9 all manuscripts of Matthew mention the Trinity without any variation.

The Gospels confirm the Trinity.

 

[koranist]

This is what the gospels have to say:

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is [a]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” - Matthew 3:16-17

This passage can be found in the other 3 gospels under Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:22, John 1:32

And in Luke we have:

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

And back to Matthew:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - Matthew 28:19

According to United Bible Societies: The Greek New Testament ISBN 3-438-05110-9 all manuscripts of Matthew mention the Trinity without any variation.

The Gospels confirm the Trinity.

As for the Gospel

Jesus is reported to have said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” and “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (John 14:9-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add: “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20) Again, while Jesus does proclaim “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30), he also prays for his followers, “that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” (John 17:21) Whatever the nature of the “oneness” Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians – in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.

Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as “equal with God” – John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 – the Greek word translated “equal” is isos, which means “on the same level” or “of the same rank,” never “identical.” The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what “everybody knows” about Jesus’ claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos” with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh” with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was” – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos” is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with” God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. … And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God” is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians; Roderick T Long

As far as the Koran it says:

“We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs, and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Baqarah: 253)

“Then God will say, O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favor upon you and upon your mother; how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Ma’idah: 110)

It also says:

Say:** The Holy Spirit brought it down from your Lord with the truth**, to strengthen those who believe, and as a guidance and good tidings to the Muslims.” (An-Nahl: 102)

It also says:

4.171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

So looks like the Koran understands God’s word and spirit differently than many Christians do.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

So looks like the Koran understands God’s word and spirit differently than many Christians do.

Hence the difference between Christianity and Islam.

Your original post asked what the Gospels had to say about the Trinity. I gave you passages. You then responded by refuting passages different than the ones I gave you.

I answered your question. God Bless.

 

[koranist]

This is what the gospels have to say:

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is [a]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” - Matthew 3:16-17

This passage can be found in the other 3 gospels under Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:22, John 1:32

And in Luke we have:

The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:35

And back to Matthew:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - Matthew 28:19

According to United Bible Societies: The Greek New Testament ISBN 3-438-05110-9 all manuscripts of Matthew mention the Trinity without any variation.

The Gospels confirm the Trinity.

Hence the difference between Christianity and Islam.

Your original post asked what the Gospels had to say about the Trinity. I gave you passages. You then responded by refuting passages different than the ones I gave you.

I answered your question. God Bless.

The passages you brought does not say that the Father and the son and holy spirit are God in one. They are one in purpose but not one in essence.

Maybe there is many difference between Christianity and Islam but I don’t see any difference between the Gospel and Koran. Islam as understood is sectarian and Christianity as understood is trinitarian. The question is which does the Gospel support, my view and the Koran’s view or your view and many Christian’s view.

I also want to know, did the prophets in the Old Testament understand the trinity? And was their view closer to my view or yours? I am assuming your trinitarian.

 

[jakasaki]

Old Testament: Showing that God is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 32 - 6
Do you thus repay the LORD,
O foolish and unwise people?
Is not He your **Father **who has bought you?
He has made you and established you.

Isaiah 63 - 16
For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

Isaiah 64 - 8
But now, O LORD, You are our Father,
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all of us are the work of Your hand.

Malachi 2 - 10
Do we not all have one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

Psalm 2 - 2
The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the **LORD **and against His Anointed, saying,

Psalm 2 - 12
Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Proverbs 30 - 4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son’s name?
Surely you know!

Isaiah 9 - 6
For a child will be born to us, a **Son **will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2 - 7:9
I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
**He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. **

1 Samuel 10 - 10
When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 19 - 20… (23)
Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

1 Kings 22 - 24
Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “**How did the Spirit of the LORD **pass from me to speak to you?”

Nehemiah 9 - 30
However, You bore with them for many years,
And admonished them by **Your Spirit **through Your prophets,
Yet they would not give ear.
Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

Psalms 51 - 11
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[koranist]

Old Testament: Showing that God is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 32 - 6
Do you thus repay the LORD,
O foolish and unwise people?
Is not He your **Father **who has bought you?
He has made you and established you.

Isaiah 63 - 16
For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

Isaiah 64 - 8
But now, O LORD, You are our Father,
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all of us are the work of Your hand.

Malachi 2 - 10
Do we not all have one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

Psalm 2 - 2
The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the **LORD **and against His Anointed, saying,

Psalm 2 - 12
Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Proverbs 30 - 4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son’s name?
Surely you know!

Isaiah 9 - 6
For a child will be born to us, a **Son **will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Psalms 2 - 7:9
I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
**He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. **

1 Samuel 10 - 10
When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 19 - 20… (23)
Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

1 Kings 22 - 24
Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “**How did the Spirit of the LORD **pass from me to speak to you?”

Nehemiah 9 - 30
However, You bore with them for many years,
And admonished them by **Your Spirit **through Your prophets,
Yet they would not give ear.
Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

Psalms 51 - 11
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

So are you then saying that the trinity applied to all these prophets also and not just Jesus?

 

[jakasaki]

So are you then saying that the trinity applied to all these prophets also and not just Jesus?

I was just showing you that God was described in the Old Testament as The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit which were the names carried onto the New Testament refering to Jesus Christ.

 

[planten]

**The posts of the Quranist are very long and very good. I yet have to read the post of jakasaki properly (carefully). The Quran gives right to Jews and christians to believe and act according to their books (Torah and New Testament). It permits them to spend their life according to their own teachings and to be peaceful, permitting others also to follow their faith freely.

The majority Muslims do not understand the teachings of the Quran as we see so much activity in the field of armed struggle against non-Muslims. The majority muslims believe that any one who has not recited teh kalimah is a kaafir. Such bad beliefs have misled the Muslims and it has brought a bad name to Islam.**

 

[koranist]

**The posts of the Quranist are very long and very good. I yet have to read the post of jakasaki properly (carefully). The Quran gives right to Jews and christians to believe and act according to their books (Torah and New Testament). It permits them to spend their life according to their own teachings and to be peaceful, permitting others also to follow their faith freely.

The majority Muslims do not understand the teachings of the Quran as we see so much activity in the field of armed struggle against non-Muslims. The majority muslims believe that any one who has not recited teh kalimah is a kaafir. Such bad beliefs have misled the Muslims and it has brought a bad name to Islam.**

I agree:

2.62. Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-** any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord**; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

And this is the verse I consider to be the standard of seperating fact from fiction:

2.177. **It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. **Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

This verse came concerning the Qibla(facing Jerusalem or Mecca or anywhere else during prayers). I challenged you to find any Sunni cleric who agrees with this verse.

 

[jakasaki]

I agree:

2.62. Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-** any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord**; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

And this is the verse I consider to be the standard of seperating fact from fiction:

2.177. **It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. **Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

This verse came concerning the Qibla(facing Jerusalem or Mecca or anywhere else during prayers). I challenged you to find any Sunni cleric who agrees with this verse.

Koranist muslim meet Ahmadi muslim, Mr. Planten…

 

[bengland]

5.110.**Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee **when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’

However the Koran says about the trinity:

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth.** The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not ‘Three’. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God**. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

The Koran confirms the Gospel
So what does the Gospel say?

The Gospel says

Mat 28:19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.'

Name is singular.

See the following thread for a recent discussion
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=269216

and this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312260

 

[planten]

My Reply to post #7 of jakasaki.

Old Testament: Showing that God is the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

jakasaki, Yes, we try to follow what you say. But when we read it, we find that there are many sons. The text says " you are all sons…" You have pasted verses but not explained the meaning you are deriving.

Deuteronomy 32 - 6
Do you thus repay the LORD,
O foolish and unwise people?
Is not He your **Father **who has bought you?
He has made you and established you.

Here it is beings told to foolish and unwise people that God is their Father. So those foolish and unwis epeople are the sons of God. What do you say?

Isaiah 63 - 16
For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

What is the meaning? Isaiah is saying to some one (Most probably to God) that He was their father. Note the word “their”. He did not say that He was his father. Explain.

Isaiah 64 - 8
But now, O LORD, You are our Father,
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all of us are the work of Your hand.

Again many people are the sons of God. Are they real sons?

Malachi 2 - 10
Do we not all have one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

Reply is “Yes, we all have one father…” It also means that God is the Father of all.

Isaiah 9 - 6
For a child will be born to us, a **Son **will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

This will be dealt separately. It does not name Jesus. There was never any government on the shoulders of Jesus even for one day. There should be a comma between “Wonderful;” and “Counselor”. That comma is missing in your quote. Jesus never took any advice or opinion of any one. He could not be any counselor. He was not any Mighty person even. He was never a father or Prince of Peace. He himself said that he had not come to make Peace in the land… See the bibleNT please.

Psalms 2 - 7:9
I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
**He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. **

**Please wait. Who said that to who? Who is telling the decree of the Lord? It must be king Soloman, I hope. So some one (God?) said to Soloman " You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. " So Soloman was the begotten son of God?

I hope that is enough about your post. Please reply to the points raised.**

 

[planten]

The Gospel says

Mat 28:19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.'

**That must have been an after though of Jesus. Earlier he was forbidding his disciples to even enter into any house other than the Israelis. That was a strict command from jesus. How come it changed in the end?? Does it mean some kind of abrogation, cancellation in the bibleNT??

Also to observe the commands. What are those commands and where are they?

" And look, I am always with you…" . all seems to be an after thought. Mathew is surmising, writing something out of his head, not through the spirit.**

 

[bengland]

**That must have been an after though of Jesus. Earlier he was forbidding his disciples to even enter into any house other than the Israelis. That was a strict command from jesus. How come it changed in the end?? Does it mean some kind of abrogation, cancellation in the bibleNT??

Also to observe the commands. What are those commands and where are they?

" And look, I am always with you…" . all seems to be an after thought. Mathew is surmising, writing something out of his head, not through the spirit.**

Because he came first to save that which is lost, then he brought the sword and cut off the root and grafted a new people onto the root of Jesse, so to speak. He first came to fulfill the first covenant so that we could be saved under the new covenant. It’s not an afterthought. It’s God keeping his Word.

 

[koranist]

Because he came first to save that which is lost, then he brought the sword and cut off the root and grafted a new people onto the root of Jesse, so to speak. He first came to fulfill the first covenant so that we could be saved under the new covenant. It’s not an afterthought. It’s God keeping his Word.

The Gospel does say Jesus is the son of God, but i understand that as a confirmation of his virgin birth. I think there is no difference between me and some here regarding that. However we differ as to what that makes Jesus to be. As some here believe that he must be physically connected to God.

Maybe we do see eye to eye but we differ in definitions.

 

[bengland]

The Gospel does say Jesus is the son of God, but i understand that as a confirmation of his virgin birth. I think there is no difference between me and some here regarding that. However we differ as to what that makes Jesus to be. As some here believe that he must be physically connected to God.

Maybe we do see eye to eye but we differ in definitions.

The Gospel of John is straight and to the point. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God … Jn 1:14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Elsewhere, in Luke Jesus accepts homage from a Samaritan and credits it as homage to God.

And one of them, realizing he had been healed, returned, glorifying God in a loud voice; and he fell at the feet of Jesus and thanked him. He was a Samaritan. Jesus said in reply, Ten were cleansed, were they not? Where are the other nine? Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God? Then he said to him, Stand up and go; your faith has saved you.
(Luk 17:15-19 NAB-A)

There are numerous statements that credit Jesus as the Son of God. There are also references to what Christians consider prophetic passages from the New Testament suggesting that God would come to us. Such as the reference to Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew
Mat 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel, which means God is with us.

It’s late and I’m off to bed for the night, but there are places where Jesus forgives sins, which is something only God can do. You might check out e-sword with the esv and kjv and douay-rheims. These will give you all of the books of the Bible from competing translations to aid in understanding. It can help you look up these various references too.

Good night. Peace.

 

[koranist]

The Gospel of John is straight and to the point. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God … Jn 1:14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Elsewhere, in Luke Jesus accepts homage from a Samaritan and credits it as homage to God.

And one of them, realizing he had been healed, returned, glorifying God in a loud voice; and he fell at the feet of Jesus and thanked him. He was a Samaritan. Jesus said in reply, Ten were cleansed, were they not? Where are the other nine? Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God? Then he said to him, Stand up and go; your faith has saved you.
(Luk 17:15-19 NAB-A)

There are numerous statements that credit Jesus as the Son of God. There are also references to what Christians consider prophetic passages from the New Testament suggesting that God would come to us. Such as the reference to Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew
Mat 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel, which means God is with us.

It’s late and I’m off to bed for the night, but there are places where Jesus forgives sins, which is something only God can do. You might check out e-sword with the esv and kjv and douay-rheims. These will give you all of the books of the Bible from competing translations to aid in understanding. It can help you look up these various references too.

Good night. Peace.

Don’t you think you are using implied reasoning? For somthing as crucial as the divinity of Jesus, would not the scriptures be more explicit? I see some spin in all this, as if a decision has been made and then verses are being used to justify that decision. Its hard to see how someone on his own could reach a conclusion like Jesus is divine by scriptures alone. In many ways Sunnism is like that they are just more upfront about the scripture(Koran) not being sufficient on its own to understand the teachings of the Koran and Muhammad. Christians seemed to have made a decision with scriptures playing catch up. Anyways, regarding what you said:

An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the “Logos” with God (John 1:1) and the “Logos made flesh” with Jesus (John 1:14). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like “the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was” – an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term “Logos” is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing’s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is “with” God and is what God is, is not God but God’s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God’s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God’s spirit (Genesis 2:7) and in God’s image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27).

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. … And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God” is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;

 

[bengland]

Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God’s nature:

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13)

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. … And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” (Romans 8:14-17)

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus’ message, being the “Son of God” is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;

Since you opened this up to the witness of the early Church in the epistles I will give you a couple.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Titus 2:11-13 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, (12) training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly, (13) while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

More of John’s evangelistic witness to who Jesus IS.

Joh 18:4-6 Jesus, knowing everything that was going to happen to him, went out and said to them, Whom are you looking for?
They answered him, Jesus the Nazorean. He said to them, I AM. Judas his betrayer was also with them.
When he said to them, I AM, they turned away and fell to the ground.

Joh 5:18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

Then there is the comparison in Luke of Mary “the mother of my Lord” Lk 1:28 to the Ark of the Covenant. You can find the article here

I gave you a post with more, but it was too long, so you get the abridged version, although I think that this is adequate to show the Biblical witness to the Divinity of Christ.