Kosher Boat

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You are wrong to imagine that you are in a position to question my faith.
That’s kinda what we do here when we hear a “Catholic” saying things that don’t line up with official Church teaching.
No I don’t believe some Catholic traditions such as some Marion apparitions but then I am free to choose not to believe in Our Lady of Knock if I choose.
You are free to pick and choose among approved private revelations as you see fit.
Some other teachings I question as indeed do many people, all of them very learned unlike me.
Even learned people can be wrong.
Theological debate has been somewhat stifled, but I believe the Curia are more open to discourse currently. The Church is not an unmovable monolith.
Unless a matter has already been settled by the Magisterium definitively.

The sinfulness of homosexual acts is not open to debate.
 
That’s kinda what we do here when we hear a “Catholic” saying things that don’t line up with official Church teaching.

You are free to pick and choose among approved private revelations as you see fit.

Even learned people can be wrong.

Unless a matter has already been settled by the Magisterium definitively.

The sinfulness of homosexual acts is not open to debate.
If questioning the faith of other people is ‘kinda’ what you do I would think its high time you stopped. Debate is fine until you begin to tell people that in your opinion that they aren’t Catholic. You are right learned people can be wrong I imagine it’s which learned discourse appears to reveal the truth, after all the Magesterium had decided it was heresy to suggest that the Earth went around the Sun and then rethought it’s teaching and now has an observatory in the Vatican. The Chuch is alive things will always develop as they always have.
 
You are wrong to imagine that you are in a position to question my faith.
Nobody is questioning your faith in God.

But I do see Catholics validly pondering your response to God’s Grace - from what I know of Catholic theology, one of those responses would be to follow God’s law to the best of one’s ability.

From the Lutheran standpoint - the prohibition of homosexual acts are not “ceremonial law” but are retained in the Gospel.
 
Hello Catholics,

I’m probably about to ask a rather obvious question that I don’t know simply because I lack the experience in your faith. Why don’t Catholics keep kosher? For that matter, why don’t they keep the 613 laws that pre-existed the Christian faith? I’ve heard Jesus (aka Yeshua) was Jewish; therefore, he must have kept the laws. If Christians are to be Christ-like, why not follow the 613.

This is related to specifically kosher foods, but also towards tattoos, pre-marital sex, and various other 'thou-shalt-not’s.

Sincerely,
Your Jewish Neighbor
Good look convincing sausage eating europeans to give up Pork.

Besides don’t most jews eat pork today too?
 
Nobody is questioning your faith in God.

But I do see Catholics validly pondering your response to God’s Grace - from what I know of Catholic theology, one of those responses would be to follow God’s law to the best of one’s ability.

From the Lutheran standpoint - the prohibition of homosexual acts are not “ceremonial law” but are retained in the Gospel.
I’m pleased to hear that first bit. I think that the problem in the Church is that since the death of Pope Paul and until the beginning of Pope Francis’s reign theological debate was crushed in a way unknown since the reign of Pius X. What many good Cathoics have grown used to is a suppression of discussion that has resulted in great Cathoilc thinkers being silenced books and papers not being published and an atmosphere where it is ‘unsafe to say’. Disputation has for centuries been one of the vehicles that has assisted the development of tradition. Like language theology develops and is nuanced. Over years these nuances can mean a complete change of ideas.
 
If questioning the faith of other people is ‘kinda’ what you do I would think its high time you stopped. Debate is fine until you begin to tell people that in your opinion that they aren’t Catholic.
If someone is simply unaware of authentic Catholic teaching, then telling them that what they are espousing is incorrect is a great blessing. OTOH, when people know that what they are posting is NOT Catholic teaching, then we have an obligation to that person as well as to the many people who might be “lurking” to correct them. Woe to me if I do not warn you, Jimmy:

Ezekiel 33:6
6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’

1 Corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently.

Now, I’m certainly not saying that you are in sin, but if something in your understanding about Catholic doctrine is incorrect, then I believe it is the right thing, the charitable thing, to show you the error.
You are right learned people can be wrong I imagine it’s which learned discourse appears to reveal the truth, after all the Magesterium had decided it was heresy to suggest that the Earth went around the Sun and then rethought it’s teaching and now has an observatory in the Vatican. The Chuch is alive things will always develop as they always have.
You are misinformed. The Church made no ruling regarding whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa. What the Church specified was that Galileo should not teach as fact something that was merely a hypothesis.

The Church lauded Galileo publicly. He had a friendly audience with Pope Paul V, and in 1611 the Jesuit Roman College held a day of ceremonies to honor Galileo. When in 1614 a Dominican monk criticized Galileo from the pulpit, the leader of the Dominicans reprimanded the monk and apologized to Galileo on behalf of the entire order.

What did get Galileo into a bit of hot water with the Church was a conclusion he drew from one of his telescopic discoveries: He discovered that Jupiter has four moons that orbit around it just as the moon does the earth. He was fascinated by this, and from this and from observing the phases of Venus (which indicated that Venus orbits the sun, not the earth) he concluded that the earth goes around the sun (a view known as heliocentrism), not the sun around the earth (known as geocentrism).

Today Galileo’s conclusion seems obvious. But it was not obvious at the time, and the truth is that Galileo was jumping to conclusions unsupported by the facts.
 
If someone is simply unaware of authentic Catholic teaching, then telling them that what they are espousing is incorrect is a great blessing. OTOH, when people know that what they are posting is NOT Catholic teaching, then we have an obligation to that person as well as to the many people who might be “lurking” to correct them. Woe to me if I do not warn you, Jimmy:

Ezekiel 33:6
6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’

Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently.

You are misinformed. The Church made no ruling regarding whether the Earth orbited the Sun or vice versa. What the Church specified was that Galileo should not teach as fact something that was merely a hypothesis.

The Church lauded Galileo publicly. He had a friendly audience with Pope Paul V, and in 1611 the Jesuit Roman College held a day of ceremonies to honor Galileo. When in 1614 a Dominican monk criticized Galileo from the pulpit, the leader of the Dominicans reprimanded the monk and apologized to Galileo on behalf of the entire order.

What did get Galileo into a bit of hot water with the Church was a conclusion he drew from one of his telescopic discoveries: He discovered that Jupiter has four moons that orbit around it just as the moon does the earth. He was fascinated by this, and from this and from observing the phases of Venus (which indicated that Venus orbits the sun, not the earth) he concluded that the earth goes around the sun (a view known as heliocentrism), not the sun around the earth (known as geocentrism).

Today Galileo’s conclusion seems obvious. But it was not obvious at the time, and the truth is that Galileo was jumping to conclusions unsupported by the facts.
I am not unaware of Catholic teaching. You can spin most stuff but Galilleo was under house arrest and silenced. I am simply breathtaken that you feel quoting scripture that implies that you are correcting my sin is appropriate. I have seldom come across such closed minds and matchless arrogance ever frankly
 
I am not unaware of Catholic teaching.
But you have said that you do not agree with all of it, correct?
You can spin most stuff but Galilleo was under house arrest and silenced.
Yes. But not for the reason you claimed.
I am simply breathtaken that you feel quoting scripture that implies that you are correcting my sin is appropriate. I have seldom come across such closed minds and matchless arrogance ever frankly
I specifically said that I was NOT accusing you of sin. However, you have been expressing some theological errors, and those I am happy to point out for your benefit.
 
anyone know what percent of jewish people in the u.s. keep the dietary laws anymore? no one in my circle of acquaintances.
It’s a small number. Just like it’s a very small number that keep the law of taharat ha mishpahah also known as the family purity laws or the laws of niddah.
 
But you have said that you do not agree with all of it, correct?

Yes. But not for the reason you claimed.

I specifically said that I was NOT accusing you of sin. However, you have been expressing some theological errors, and those I am happy to point out for your benefit.
I have been asking questions and probing inconsistencies unlike almost every other person on here who apparently have the full answer to every single matter of faith and morals. I must say I do find this web site eyewateringly prescriptive. I find some of the posts odd. There is a clear fondness for religious habits, the Tridentine Mass, the Index and the cult of Angels. No questions about belief just acres of trivia about birettas and maniples. Discourse is discouraged and regarded as sinful. Thank God they didn’t think so at any of the Councils of the Church otherwise we would be nowhere
 
This also puzzles me because we don’t regard divorce as a sin and yet Jesus seems pretty unequivocal here
From the CCC

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178
 
I have been asking questions and probing inconsistencies unlike almost every other person on here who apparently have the full answer to every single matter of faith and morals. I must say I do find this web site eyewateringly prescriptive. I find some of the posts odd. There is a clear fondness for religious habits, the Tridentine Mass, the Index and the cult of Angels. No questions about belief just acres of trivia about birettas and maniples. Discourse is discouraged and regarded as sinful. Thank God they didn’t think so at any of the Councils of the Church otherwise we would be nowhere
Ah…You’ve been viewing the Traditional Catholicism forum, I see.

I never go there. 😉
 
From the CCC

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178
Thanks. I don’t believe that this is commonly understood
 
What did Jesus say about same sex relations. I know what he said about divorce
CCC

2489 **Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. **the good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 
CCC

2489 **Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. **the good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"and [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
See that’s an ANSWER!!
 
Horus Reads the Internet
Why Christians are no longer bound by Jewish Ceremonial Laws

youtube.com/watch?v=4r2m_cffRjI&feature=youtu.be

Partial Transcript:

Something that is made clear throughout the scriptures is the distinction between the Moral Law and the Ceremonial Law. The Moral Law is the stuff found in the 10 Commandments: things like, “You shall have no other gods”, “Don’t murder”, and “Don’t commit adultery.”

The Ceremonial Law on the other hand is the stuff found primarily in the book of Leviticus that the Israelite people were required to observe: things like, “Don’t eat pork or shellfish” and “Those who engage in homosexual acts must be put to death.”

The Bible also teaches the Moral Law and the Ceremonial Law have two very different purposes. According to Romans 5, for example, the purpose of the Moral Law is to show us our sins so that we can see our need for Christ and his forgiveness. And because all of us are sinners who need to have our sins set before us in order to see our need for Christ, the Moral Law still applies to us today.

According to Exodus 19, the Ceremonial Law is quite different. The purpose of the Ceremonial Law was to mark the Israelites as the people from whom the Messiah was going to come. In other words, the Ceremonial Law formed the way the Israelites worshipped, dressed, ate, worked and practiced justice, this was God’s way of reminding the Israelites that the savior of the world would come from them. And so, when that savior finally came in the person of Jesus, the purpose of the Ceremonial Law had been fulfilled. So, in the same way that you don’t need to hang up flyers for a concert once the concert is over, after Jesus died and rose again, it was no longer necessary to follow the Ceremonial Law.

This is why in the Book of Acts, Chapter 10, God tells Peter that all of the animals are now considered clean and that the Gentiles who didn’t follow the Ceremonial Law were welcomed into the Christian faith. So, the reason that Christians can eat pork and shellfish isn’t because we don’t take our faith seriously, it’s because we take our faith so seriously that we’ve actually read the Bible, and the Bible tells us that we are now free to eat these things.
This is as good an explanation from the Christian perspective as I have heard. Truth to be told, it has also served, with one major exception in the Person of Jesus Christ, in Reform Judaism (at least the more extreme expressions of it) as a marked distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law. In large measure, Reform Judaism rejects the Talmudic understanding according to Orthodox Judaism that ceremonial law and moral law are intertwined since BOTH stem from the divine commandment, whether found in the Written Law or the codified Oral Law. One verse in the Talmud, which states that during the Messianic era, ceremonial law will no longer be necessary, strengthens the case put forth by those leaders of Reform Judaism. Besides, the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible always stressed the importance of moral law compared to ceremony and warned that ceremony without inner conviction was considered by G-d to be null and void and put a damper on the very spirit of Judaism. The Orthodox Jewish interpretation of this verse of the Talmud, however, is that ceremonial law will at last be at one with moral law, both externally and internally, during the time of the Messiah and will never be deleted. Historically, according to the MOST extreme Reform Jewish belief, EVEN such declarations as the seventh-day commandment of the Sabbath and the rite of circumcision were grouped under ceremonial acts and thus vulnerable to change. Within Reform Judaism itself, there thus developed an internal conflict regarding just how far any revision of ceremony should go without denying the religion itself. (The latter ceremonies have, for the most part, remained in Reform Judaism.)
 
Yeah, there are many more reformed Jews now that do not keep kosher. Orthodox Judaism, Hasidic Jews that is abstain from pork and other forbidden foods/mixtures, but you make a valid point that not many of us follow all of our laws. I’m asking for scriptural or cultural explanations for why the Catholic did away with kosher.
Jesus taught that it is not that which goes into a man’s mouth which defiles him but that which comes out of his mouth (Matthew 15)

Peter was told by God that nothing was to be considered unclean (Acts of the Apostles 11). Paul taught that we are to abstain from foods if it is a stumbling block to our neighbor. (Romans 14).

The entire Torah can be summed up with one word - love. If we love our neighbor with the self-sacrificing love with which Jesus loved us then we will have fulfill the entire Torah.

The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Romans 13:9)

Jesus himself pointed out that priests are exempt from the law as they have to work on the Sabbath and condemned a pharisaical approach to the law which said that a man cannot be healed on the sabbath. He taught that mercy and love is greater than strict outward observance of the letter of the law.

He himself gave us his blood to drink thereby ending the prohibition against drinking blood.

-Tim-
 
This is as good an explanation from the Christian perspective as I have heard. Truth to be told, it has also served, with one MAJOR EXCEPTION in the Person of Jesus Christ, in Reform Judaism (at least the more extreme expressions of it) as a marked distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law. In large measure, Reform Judaism rejects the Talmudic understanding according to Orthodox Judaism that ceremonial law and moral law are intertwined since BOTH stem from the divine commandment, whether found in the Written Law or the codified Oral Law. One verse in the Talmud, which states that during the Messianic era, ceremonial law will no longer be necessary, strengthens the case put forth by those leaders of Reform Judaism. Besides, the Prophets in the Hebrew Bible always stressed the importance of moral law compared to ceremony and warned that ceremony without inner conviction was regarded by G-d to be null and void and put a damper on the very spirit of Judaism. The Orthodox Jewish interpretation of this verse of the Talmud, however, is that ceremonial law will at last be at one with moral law, both externally and internally, during the time of the Messiah and will never be deleted. Historically, according to the MOST extreme Reform Jewish belief, even such declarations as the seventh-day commandment of the Sabbath and the rite of circumcision were grouped under ceremonial acts and thus vulnerable to change. Within Reform Judaism itself, there thus developed an internal conflict regarding just how far any revision of ceremony should go without denying the religion itself. (The latter ceremonies have, for the most part, remained in Reform Judaism.)
Wow. Coming from you, that’s quite an endorsement.

In light of this discussion regarding Moral and Ceremonial Laws, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on Jesus’ many entanglements with the authorities of his day.

I would be willing to bet that Jesus constantly upheld the former while occasionally breaking the latter, and that is what got him in trouble with the Pharisees.
 
Jesus taught that it is not that which goes into a man’s mouth which defiles him but that which comes out of his mouth.

The entire Torah can be summed up with one word - love. If we love our neighbor with the self-sacrificing love with which Jesus loved us then we will have fulfill the entire Torah.

The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Romans 13:9)

-Tim-
The movement of Judaism led by Hillel the Elder also believed this a generation before the coming of Jesus: that is, the essence of Torah study is to love G-d and love thy neighbor, and all the rest is commentary. However, there is also the belief within Judaism–the Shammai school–that G-d is in the details of the Law, for without studying and learning the details, it is challenging, if not impossible, to know HOW to translate the love of G-d and neighbor into actual practice.

Further, has not the Church evolved ceremonial aspects within its Canon Law–bound to morality, to be sure–which are thought to be essential to becoming a devout, practicing Catholic?
 
Further, has not the Church evolved ceremonial aspects within its Canon Law–bound to morality, to be sure–which are thought to be essential to becoming a devout, practicing Catholic?
Hmmm…what did you have in mind specifically?
 
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