Kreeft: Jesus Shock, revisited

[sirach2v4]

This book was published maybe in 2006, but I just found it.

It’s a pretty good book, but I’m “shocked” by some of the things he says. What caught my eye today is that he says Protestants, without the sacraments, get into heaven by the back door, but Catholics with the sacraments get into the front door of heaven.

Somewhere on that page he quotes the Catechism to allegedly say that God doesn’t need the sacraments to save somebody. Hmmm. I need help with that, too.

 

[JurisPrudens]

This book was published maybe in 2006, but I just found it.

It’s a pretty good book, but I’m “shocked” by some of the things he says. What caught my eye today is that he says Protestants, without the sacraments, get into heaven by the back door, but Catholics with the sacraments get into the front door of heaven.

Somewhere on that page he quotes the Catechism to allegedly say that God doesn’t need the sacraments to save somebody. Hmmm. I need help with that, too.

I like the metaphor about doors. :getholy:

Well… God is not restricted in the way He saves people, that is true. However, a person is supposed to Answer to the God’s grace. And it is through sacraments that a person answers the call, receives the graces.

So, theoretically God may personally call someone at the edge of death, and the person would answer the call by the ways available. But if the sacraments available to the person, but he rejects them… hmmm, salvation much harder for such a person

 

[MarkInOregon]

This book was published maybe in 2006, but I just found it.

It’s a pretty good book, but I’m “shocked” by some of the things he says. What caught my eye today is that he says Protestants, without the sacraments, get into heaven by the back door, but Catholics with the sacraments get into the front door of heaven.

Somewhere on that page he quotes the Catechism to allegedly say that God doesn’t need the sacraments to save somebody. Hmmm. I need help with that, too.

It is us who need the sacraments isn’t it–not God? Can’t God save whoever he wants regardless of the sacraments? God doesn’t need anything does he?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Salvation only lies inside the Catholic Church, outside of it there is no salvation. The Sacraments are what give life to the soul and allow it to enter heaven, these Sacraments are what God has chosen to give salvation through. Since Protestants do not have valid Sacraments (besides Baptism maybe) they do not maintain sanctifying grace (if they fall, they have no Confession). There is the possibility of invincible ignorance, but this is an exception to the rule. Without the Sacraments to nourish your soul, it is nearly impossible to get to heaven.

God doesn’t need anything to save anybody, that is why the Church says there is the possibility of invincible ignorance in which God saves someone through extraordinary means since the Sacraments do not bind God. But we need the Sacraments to achieve salvation.

 

[grannymh]

This book was published maybe in 2006, but I just found it.

It’s a pretty good book, but I’m “shocked” by some of the things he says. What caught my eye today is that he says Protestants, without the sacraments, get into heaven by the back door, but Catholics with the sacraments get into the front door of heaven.

Somewhere on that page he quotes the Catechism to allegedly say that God doesn’t need the sacraments to save somebody. Hmmm. I need help with that, too.

CCC **1257 **The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

**CCC 1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

[Patti_M]

I was given an analogy a while back that when it comes to salvation we should compare it to a long journey; Catholics are driving 2000 miles in a 2013 Cadillac, Protestants are traveling in a 2007 Ford Focus. The other religions were in different vehicles, can’t remember the details but you get the picture. We as Catholics, if we choose to abide by Church teachings, receive the sacraments worthily and follow all her precepts, have a much better chance of attaining life in heaven then any other religion. The bottom line is that we must abide by what the Church teaches, not an easy thing to do. Protestants can get to heaven but the means by which they choose to do it is not as reliable as ours.

 

[crai7]

Salvation only lies inside the Catholic Church, outside of it there is no salvation.

Which places the Catholic Church into the category of a cult. A common characteristic of cults is that they insert themselves between God and man, claiming membership, money and obedience to their particular organisation is the only way to salvation.

“Upon this rock I will build my church” doesn’t go beyond Peter himself. The Catholic Church created a fictional narrative of papal succession, and a fictional authority to mediate between God and man that not even Peter himself claimed.

 

[AKDee]

Somewhere on that page he quotes the Catechism to allegedly say that God doesn’t need the sacraments to save somebody. Hmmm. I need help with that, too.

God can do whatever He wishes. The Sacraments are for us, not for Him.

Remember when our Lord was on the cross and he spoke to the good thief, and told him that that very day he would be with Him in Paradise? I think it’s a safe bet the good thief never got baptized. It didn’t matter. The Lord willed that he should be saved. I think most people agree that Elijah and Moses never received the sacraments either, but it would appear from the record of the Transfiguration that they both made it to Heaven.

The Catholic Church believes in a concept for protestants called “Invincible Ignorance” and it is by that means that they may still enter Heaven. God can extend His Mercy to anyone He wishes.

 

[grannymh]

Acts, Chapter 2.

 

[grannymh]

Which places the Catholic Church into the category of a cult. A common characteristic of cults is that they insert themselves between God and man, claiming membership, money and obedience to their particular organisation is the only way to salvation.

“Upon this rock I will build my church” doesn’t go beyond Peter himself. The Catholic Church created a fictional narrative of papal succession, and a fictional authority to mediate between God and man that not even Peter himself claimed.

Chapter 14, Gospel of John, especially verses 15-18 and 25-26

Acts, Chapter 2

 

[JerryZ]

Which places the Catholic Church into the category of a cult. A common characteristic of cults is that they insert themselves between God and man, claiming membership, money and obedience to their particular organisation is the only way to salvation.

“Upon this rock I will build my church” doesn’t go beyond Peter himself. The Catholic Church created a fictional narrative of papal succession, and a fictional authority to mediate between God and man that not even Peter himself claimed.

Funny I switch channels and find lots of televangelist asking for tithes.

I have never heard a priest ask for tithes, each gives according on their own free will.
Money does not buy you or anyone Heaven, obedience to Jesus’s words I would venture it does. And the Catholic Church as the earthly representative of Jesus while we wait for His glorious return has been faithful to HIS teachings for 2000 years.

As for you assertion that the power of binding and loosing was circumscribed to Peter only presents a dim view of Jesus and HIS authority over HIS Church.

How can Jesus authority be preserved after Peter’s death?
The whole world can see for it is evident what happens when there is no an authoritative person that can stop the fragmentation of beliefs and traditions.
The cacophony of 40000 different denominations that are the hallmark of protestantism each with their diverse and varied beliefs and theology, each having erected themselves as popes and interpreters of Scripture. It just does not make sense.
As an apologist quipped it looks like the Holy Spirit is a Spirit of Confusion instead of a Spirit of Truth.
Finally I do not see where the Church claims to be a “mediator” between GOD and man.
The Church role is quite clear, do what Jesus commanded HER to do. Each and every one of HIS teachings. We read that we are all part of the Body of Christ, and each is responsible for the well being of the body. When we sin, we harm/wound the body. We are all connected.

…

 

[John_Lazarus]

I was given an analogy a while back that when it comes to salvation we should compare it to a long journey; Catholics are driving 2000 miles in a 2013 Cadillac, Protestants are traveling in a 2007 Ford Focus. The other religions were in different vehicles, can’t remember the details but you get the picture.

I think there are 11 long-haired Friends of Jesus in a chartreuse Microbus.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think there are 11 long-haired Friends of Jesus in a chartreuse Microbus.

We got us a convoy to Heaven?

So, Christ died on the cross, effectively paying for our sins. If one of my sins is a rejection of the Church, didn’t he die for that, too? Aren’t I forgiven for that?

I am not a universalist, but find that argument compelling.

 

[grannymh]

We got us a convoy to Heaven?

So, Christ died on the cross, effectively paying for our sins. If one of my sins is a rejection of the Church, didn’t he die for that, too? Aren’t I forgiven for that?

I am not a universalist, but find that argument compelling.

The friendship relationship between a human and Christ is a two-way street.
Christ loves and forgives.

but
In addition, the human in the two-way friendship relationship has the serious responsibility to sincerely acknowledge his sin, express his sorrow, and seek mercy and forgiveness from God.

 

[exnihilo]

Others have done a good job explaining what he likely meant. I like Kreeft a lot. I don’t think anything he said is contrary to the faith. The bottom line is everyone who wants to be saved should embrace the Catholic faith, make use of the sacraments, and strive for holiness. This is the surest way to be saved. Anything less is risking your soul.

Which places the Catholic Church into the category of a cult. A common characteristic of cults is that they insert themselves between God and man, claiming membership, money and obedience to their particular organisation is the only way to salvation.

“Upon this rock I will build my church” doesn’t go beyond Peter himself. The Catholic Church created a fictional narrative of papal succession, and a fictional authority to mediate between God and man that not even Peter himself claimed.

Cult is a pejorative word. At its root it just means religion, which the Catholic faith certainly is. The word doesn’t serve much use except to express that the person using it doesn’t like or agree with the faith he so labels.

I’m curious though what sort of religion would discourage membership, have no organization such that it doesn’t need funds, and teach that other competing religions (whose beliefs are radically different) are just as true?

 

[Gorgias]

Confiteor Deo:

Salvation only lies inside the Catholic Church, outside of it there is no salvation.

Which places the Catholic Church into the category of a cult. A common characteristic of cults is that they insert themselves between God and man, claiming membership, money and obedience to their particular organisation is the only way to salvation.

Which is why the interpretation of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” that asserts that it means “nobody but Catholics can be saved” is a misinterpretation.

In other words, the statement doesn’t speak to who is saved, but rather, it speaks to the means of salvation – the Church. That is to say, Christ saves, through His Church.

“Upon this rock I will build my church” doesn’t go beyond Peter himself.

You’re right! There’s no other rock upon which Christ build his Church than that of Peter! Not any other religion or Christian denomination – only the rock that is the Church! It’s good to see that you agree with us…

Yet, your claim is interesting: you seem to be confusing “on this rock” with the assertion of Peter as having been given the keys to the kingdom: would you assert that “what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” gives Peter authority? And, if Peter ‘binds and looses’ in order to institute Apostolic Succession (see Acts 1), then Peter used the authority given to him in precisely the way you claim doesn’t exist. Yet… it exists in the Bible. Hmm…

The Catholic Church created a fictional narrative of papal succession

How so?

 

[Duane1966]

We got us a convoy to Heaven?

So, Christ died on the cross, effectively paying for our sins. If one of my sins is a rejection of the Church, didn’t he die for that, too? Aren’t I forgiven for that?

I am not a universalist, but find that argument compelling.

And if I reject Jesus, am I forgiven that also?

 

[grannymh]

And if I reject Jesus, am I forgiven that also?

The friendship relationship between Jesus and a human is a two-way street.
Jesus loves and forgives. The human loves and seeks forgiveness.

When the human in the two-way friendship relationship with Jesus deliberately rejects Jesus, then the rejected Jesus is left with a broken relationship. When this happens, it is the human’s responsibility to acknowledge his sin of rejection, express his sincere sorrow, and humbly seek mercy, forgiveness, and reconciliation from Jesus.

Jesus is always present in His love. As a sinner, it is up to us to seek the presence of Jesus, especially in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation.

 

[PaulinVA]

And if I reject Jesus, am I forgiven that also?

Good question. If my sin prevents me from cooperating with the grace God gives me to reconcile with Him, did he die on the cross for me in vain?

I can not earn my salvation. I am not worthy.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Good question. If my sin prevents me from cooperating with the grace God gives me to reconcile with Him, did he die on the cross for me in vain?

I can not earn my salvation. I am not worthy.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

It has to make you wonder why Jesus would have spent soooo much time preaching and teaching about things like entering thru the narrow gate, warning about damnation, giving us the beatitudes, asking us to pick up our cross and follow Him, telling us that not all who cry out lord, Lord will be saved, telling us to eat his flesh and drink his blood, else we have no life in us, to keep the commandments ,and so much more. Hanging your hat on a single line of scripture while ignoring all of Jesus’ teachings seems pretty foolish to me.