Kyrie

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Hello,

The Kyrie Eleison: is it Trinitarian in nature or Christological in nature?
 
All three invocations are addressed to the Second Person. Thus, you have in the Missal things like “Lord Jesus, you sit at the right hand of the Father, Lord have mercy.”
 
*Kyrie eleison. * Lord, have mercy.

*Christe eleison. * Christ, have mercy.

*Kyrie eleison. * Lord, have mercy.

I’d have to go for Christological.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

The Kyrie Eleison: is it Trinitarian in nature or Christological in nature?
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Can’t be Trinitarian in nature as the Holy Spirit isn’t addressed. (Did someone rule out the Father being Lord?)

In any case, I’d lean towards the latter.
 
Hello,

One commentary I read (can’t think of where) gave it a Trinitarian view:

God the Father: Lord have mercy!
God the Son: Christ have mercy!
God the Holy Spirit: Lord have mercy!

But, it seems that it could have a Christological nature as well.

It is similar, in my opinion, to the Trisagion which can be viewed as having both a Trinitarian and Christological side.

Trisagion is - Holy God, Holy Strong, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.
 
My '62 missal comments (though without an imprimatur) that the Kyrie is trinitarian. I think this comes out more clearly when it is done as the traditional 9-fold Kyrie. 3 repetitions of a line for each of the three persons of the Trinity.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
My '62 missal comments (though without an imprimatur) that the Kyrie is trinitarian. I think this comes out more clearly when it is done as the traditional 9-fold Kyrie. 3 repetitions of a line for each of the three persons of the Trinity.
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Good point. I didn’t think of that. I’m thinking this is true of the Agnus Dei and the Domine Non Sum Dignus as well. 👍
 
I would say it’s Christological. Even if you take some of the exhortations:

“You were sent to heal the contrite”
“You bring pardon and peace to the sinners”
“You bring life to those in darkness”

It is referring to the second person of the trinity because Christ and Lord refer to the Son. Not the Father or the Spirit.

P.S. I am reading a book on Christology that I am just getting into. I am sure my position on this may change by the time I am done though. It is called “Who Do You Say That I Am?: An Introduction to Christology” by Jacques Dupuis. If anyone has read this or know of the author, please e-mail me.
 
Hello,
pprimeau1976 said:
I would say it’s Christological. Even if you take some of the exhortations:

“You were sent to heal the contrite”
“You bring pardon and peace to the sinners”
“You bring life to those in darkness”

It is referring to the second person of the trinity because Christ and Lord refer to the Son. Not the Father or the Spirit.
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Question: Were these tropes a part, maybe optional, of the Kyrie in the Tridentine Liturgy? If they are new to the Novus Ordo, who wrote them? Are they part of the official text, or is the text variable - written by a group like ICEL or a diocesan Liturgy committee?
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

Question: Were these tropes a part, maybe optional, of the Kyrie in the Tridentine Liturgy? If they are new to the Novus Ordo, who wrote them? Are they part of the official text, or is the text variable - written by a group like ICEL or a diocesan Liturgy committee?
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The tropes were invented with the NO and I believe there are ca. 12 official options in American missals at this time. I’m not entirely sure if all of the tropes have been around since 1970 or if their number has slowly grown over time. I suspect, since the tropes are at least more suggestive of Christological focus, that there may have been a conscious effort on the part of the authors to alter the focus at this point. Opening the standard of a 9-fold Kyrie to a wider range of numbers certainly creates instability if nothing else.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
I would say it’s Christological. Even if you take some of the exhortations:

“You were sent to heal the contrite”
“You bring pardon and peace to the sinners”
“You bring life to those in darkness”

It is referring to the second person of the trinity because Christ and Lord refer to the Son. Not the Father or the Spirit.

P.S. I am reading a book on Christology that I am just getting into. I am sure my position on this may change by the time I am done though. It is called “Who Do You Say That I Am?: An Introduction to Christology” by Jacques Dupuis. If anyone has read this or know of the author, please e-mail me.
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The first trope can’t refer to the Father, because he is never sent, but I don’t see why the latter two need necessarily refer to Christ, as they are general expressions about salvation that is the work of all three Persons together. Also, Lord need not be exclusively Christ - let’s not forget that the Lord God was alive and kicking all through the OT before the Son was ever revealed to us.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
The Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject:

“So we have, at least from the eighth century, our present practice of singing immediately after the Introit three times Kyrie Eleison, three times Christe Eleison, three times Kyrie Eleison, making nine invocations altogether. Obviously the first group is addressed to God the Father, the second to God the Son, the third to God the Holy Ghost.”
newadvent.org/cathen/08714a.htm
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Wow, that’s some deep stuff. So, I would have to wonder whether the Kyrie should be sung in be sung in the vernacular at all. Is there a translation issue? Does Kyrie even mean Lord? I am not justifying the total use of Latin, because if anything it justifies the use of more Greek! But if there is no fitting translation, it just shouldn’t be translated…period.
 
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