Labyrinth's and Centered Altars

[aj830]

Me and my family met up with some of our other relatives at a condo. They had told us about the Mass they had gone to and wanted us to see the Church. The first thing I noticed was a arrow outside the Church pointing to the “Labyrinth” and sure enough there was one right in front of the Church.

It was locked when we arrived but they also informed me that the altar was in the middle surrounded by the pews. I said I didn’t even think they were allowed to do this.

Now, I did not attend the Mass but just these two things seem to scream out liturgical abuse. Is there anything prohibitting labyrinths and having the altar in the middle of the Church as opposed to it’s usual position at the front? Am I just overeacting? The whole idea just gave me a bad feeling about the parish.

 

[puzzleannie]

the altar is in the middle of the labyrinth?

a labyrinth is neutral, and those in medieval churches (or usually somewhere on church property, not in the church) were intended to represent a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, once access to the actual pilgrimage sites was barred by the Muslims. It depends on whether the labyrinth is presented in some New Age context whether or not it is wrongly used today.

There are documents of the Church giving guidelines for designing and building churches, placement of the altar etc. There are many churches “in the round” built with the altar in the center, my childhood parish Shrine of the Little Flower, the first dedicated to her after her canonization, built in 1928 in Royal Oak Michigan, is an example. No it is not forbidden.

 

[Biblioassistant]

There’s a famous labyrinth on the floor of Chartres Cathedral. There’s a smaller version of it at New Harmony, IN and I’ve been there several times. It’s kind of fun to walk it and see how the twists and turns lead you home. I stay far, far away from the New Agey aspects of it though.

 

[drafdog]

Yes, you are over reacting. The labyrinth is symbolic of our journey home to the Father. None of us goes in a straight line, not even Jesus.

Matthew

 

[Brendan]

Yes, you are over reacting. The labyrinth is symbolic of our journey home to the Father. None of us goes in a straight line, not even Jesus.

Matthew

It’s a little more than than. It’s more like a Rosary. The Chartes labyrinth has 12 sections. Each is associated with a part of the life of Christ, from the Annunciation to the Crucifixion.

A ‘pilgrim’ meditated on the particular Mystery while chanting an associated Psalm or Canticle.

The last 12th, the Crucifixion, the pilgrim did on their knees, chanting the Miserere and striking their breasts.

I don’t see too many ‘New Age’ types striking their breasts in the Labyrinth, or even know what the Miserere actually is

 

[Brendan]

As far as ‘Churches in the Round’. That was a common style after the Crusades, in imitation of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Other pre-Vatican II Churches are also in that style, such as the National Shrine of the Little Flower (built in 1928)

http://www.shrinechurch.com/image/tour/35a.jpg

I do think that modern use of the concept has more to do with a performance mentality than any desire to replicate the Church of the Holy Speulchre

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As far as ‘Churches in the Round’. That was a common style after the Crusades, in imitation of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Other pre-Vatican II Churches are also in that style, such as the National Shrine of the Little Flower (built in 1928)

http://www.shrinechurch.com/image/tour/35a.jpg

I do think that modern use of the concept has more to do with a performance mentality than any desire to replicate the Church of the Holy Speulchre

Actually it had more to do with celebrating Mass as they did in the early Church, prior to Constantine donating Roman Public buildings for the use as Churches, which eventually became the model for church architecture in the west.

Roman public buildings were generally designed for Kings or heads of state and their courts where the King sat at the head on a place of prominence and the court or other officials, sat on each side according to importance. Anyone not of the court sat in the general audience section. However, Churches in the East were circular, with the people sitting around the altar.

Look at old church architecture and you’ll see the King and Court style within it, including a thrown for the celebrant.

Jim

 

[Lepanto]

There are many churches “in the round” built with the altar in the center, my childhood parish Shrine of the Little Flower, the first dedicated to her after her canonization, built in 1928 in Royal Oak Michigan, is an example. No it is not forbidden.

That church was originally going to be cruciform, but the builders had to change plans after they found the ground too soft for a traditional style building.

 

[Lepanto]

St. Mary’s Cathedral of Saginaw was originally a beautifully and traditionally-decorated cruciform church. The previous bishop (Ken Untener) gutted it and had the altar and “presider’s chair” placed in the middle of the nave. Utterly bizarre.

 

[Brendan]

That church was originally going to be cruciform, but the builders had to change plans after they found the ground too soft for a traditional style building.

Do you have a link to that, that’s a neighboring parish and that’s the first I’ve ever hear of it.

And kind of counter intuitive considering the very large tower they have

 

[mercygate]

Actually it had more to do with celebrating Mass as they did in the early Church, prior to Constantine donating Roman Public buildings for the use as Churches, which eventually became the model for church architecture in the west.

Roman public buildings were generally designed for Kings or heads of state and their courts where the King sat at the head on a place of prominence and the court or other officials, sat on each side according to importance. Anyone not of the court sat in the general audience section. However, Churches in the East were circular, with the people sitting around the altar.

Look at old church architecture and you’ll see the King and Court style within it, including a thrown for the celebrant.

Jim

The earliest above-ground Church known – the house church at Dura-Europos (ca 250 A.D.) – had the altar smack flat up against the wall and the celebrant could not face the people.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

As far as ‘Churches in the Round’. That was a common style after the Crusades, in imitation of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Other pre-Vatican II Churches are also in that style, such as the National Shrine of the Little Flower (built in 1928)

http://www.shrinechurch.com/image/tour/35a.jpg

I do think that modern use of the concept has more to do with a performance mentality than any desire to replicate the Church of the Holy Speulchre

And, if anyone wonders where the tabernacle is, it is in the alcove behind the Altar.

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

It’s a little more than than. It’s more like a Rosary. The Chartes labyrinth has 12 sections. Each is associated with a part of the life of Christ, from the Annunciation to the Crucifixion.

A ‘pilgrim’ meditated on the particular Mystery while chanting an associated Psalm or Canticle.

Could you post a link or book title for this info? I’d love to have it. Most of what I’ve seen has been very New Agey. (I hate that the New Agers have claimed such a hold on labyrinths! Especially the one from Chartres, which wasn’t theirs in the first place!)

I have a small, hand-held copy of the Chartres cathedral labyrinth. It has a small stylus that you use to “walk” the pattern. Just like our walk with Christ, it has twists and turns, you even seem to backtrack, but there is only ONE path, and it leads you to the center (symbolic of Christ).

I don’t use mine too often, but I usually pray about something bothering me on the way “in”, then my thoughts tend to naturally turn to how to go back out in the world and show Christ to others on the way “out”.

I love having the physical prayer aid. Ain’t it great being Catholic? The Church understands we’re people, not just spirits!

 

[Brendan]

Could you post a link or book title for this info? I’d love to have it. Most of what I’ve seen has been very New Agey. (I hate that the New Agers have claimed such a hold on labyrinths! Especially the one from Chartres, which wasn’t theirs in the first place!)

My major was Engineering, but I got a Minor is Ecclesial Architectuire (focus on Gothic)

It was something we covered many years ago, that’s why I only remember the last of the twelve sections

 

[Brendan]

And, if anyone wonders where the tabernacle is, it is in the alcove behind the Altar.

It’s in the Octagonal opening behind, and slightly right of the altar.

The main corridor behind the altar goes to the Sacristy. That is where the priest processes from.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

It’s in the Octagonal opening behind, and slightly right of the altar.

The main corridor behind the altar goes to the Sacristy. That is where the priest processes from.

And, if you get a particular priests there, he sends you there to pray in front of the Tabernacle for penance when you go for confession

 

[Lepanto]

Do you have a link to that, that’s a neighboring parish and that’s the first I’ve ever hear of it.

And kind of counter intuitive considering the very large tower they have

I read it in one of the displays in their small museum some years ago.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The earliest above-ground Church known – the house church at Dura-Europos (ca 250 A.D.) – had the altar smack flat up against the wall and the celebrant could not face the people.

Dura-Europos was a Roman built city, and the house church was a Roman government building, and being such was built accordingly.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that Eastern churches were commonly built round, not rectangular like western churches.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

Dura-Europos was a Roman built city, and the house church was a Roman government building, and being such was built accordingly.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that Eastern churches were commonly built round, not rectangular like western churches.

Jim

But there was no division of east and west in 250 A.D. When did eastern churches start looking like they do today – with the altar behind the iconostasis at the east end?

 

[puzzleannie]

And, if anyone wonders where the tabernacle is, it is in the alcove behind the Altar.

photo this quote refers to is the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak Mich, a suburb of Detroit. You can see the alcove with the blessed Sacrament chapel, and around the outside are several alcoves, also in that octagonal shape, with saint shrines, including of course, that of the the Little Flower, it still remains one of my favorite churches of all time, not only because it is my baptismal parish. we lived there briefly in the 80s when there were outdoor Masses on the lawn with wonderbread and dancers, but thankfully that experiment did not last long, and they could not find anything to renovate inside. I have heard since it has reverted to a traditional very reverent parish with perpetual adoration etc. and I believe the school K-12 is still open.