Labyrinth's and Centered Altars

[JimR-OCDS]

But there was no division of east and west in 250 A.D. When did eastern churches start looking like they do today – with the altar behind the iconostasis at the east end?

The division between east and west had nothing to do with construction styles of churches.

As I said earlier, after Constantine donated government buildings to the Church, new construction followed the same layout as a royal court would have.

Jim

 

[WanderAimlessly]

photo this quote refers to is the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak Mich, a suburb of Detroit. You can see the alcove with the blessed Sacrament chapel, and around the outside are several alcoves, also in that octagonal shape, with saint shrines, including of course, that of the the Little Flower, it still remains one of my favorite churches of all time, not only because it is my baptismal parish. we lived there briefly in the 80s when there were outdoor Masses on the lawn with wonderbread and dancers, but thankfully that experiment did not last long, and they could not find anything to renovate inside. I have heard since it has reverted to a traditional very reverent parish with perpetual adoration etc. and I believe the school K-12 is still open.

I know. I have been there several times since I live over near Telegraph in Southfield. The Masses are very traditional.

They turned the Coughlin Building into a Perpetual Adoration Chapel. I have not been it the chapel yet, but I hear it is nice.

 

[mercygate]

The division between east and west had nothing to do with construction styles of churches.

As I said earlier, after Constantine donated government buildings to the Church, new construction followed the same layout as a royal court would have.

Jim

Ah. The way you had stated it, it sounded like you were saying that Dura-Europos, being Roman, had differed from eastern churches because it was Roman.

BTW, the frescoes in the Dura house church are much more Mesopotamian in style than Roman (ditto the Dura synagogue frescoes) in that they have already begun to show the flattening & 2-dimensionalism of the east.

The basilica form lent itself well remarkably to imitating the layout of the Temple in Jerusalem, with the sanctuary for the holy of holies the culmination of the architectural progression from outer to inner courts.

I guess I got off on this tangent because I get cranky when people try to sell a model of early church liturgy that is not borne out by the archaeology. The earliest round church I know of is the charmin Sta. Costanza in Rome. It’s 4th century building but it was not converted from its original function as a mausoleum until the 11th or 12th century, so you really can’t point to it as a model.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The direction of the priest all has to do with the direction Christ faced, when He instituted the Eucharist. The priest, faces the same direction.

Jim

 

[bakhita]

St. Mary’s Cathedral of Saginaw was originally a beautifully and traditionally-decorated cruciform church. The previous bishop (Ken Untener) gutted it and had the altar and “presider’s chair” placed in the middle of the nave. Utterly bizarre.

I have heard rumors that Bishop Carlson wants to restore the Cathedral to its original splendor.

 

[mercygate]

The direction of the priest all has to do with the direction Christ faced, when He instituted the Eucharist. The priest, faces the same direction.

Jim

But we do not merely replicate the Last Supper in the liturgy. Limiting the liturgy to that that would leave us with a very undeveloped image of sacramental and covenant theology. this is true whether the priest is facing ad populum or ad orientem.

 

[8640]

But we do not merely replicate the Last Supper in the liturgy. Limiting the liturgy to that that would leave us with a very undeveloped image of sacramental and covenant theology. this is true whether the priest is facing ad populum or ad orientem.

The Mass is eschatological in nature and thus the direction of the prayer should be towards the east - the rising sun

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But we do not merely replicate the Last Supper in the liturgy. Limiting the liturgy to that that would leave us with a very undeveloped image of sacramental and covenant theology. this is true whether the priest is facing ad populum or ad orientem.

That’s right, but we do replicate the actions of Jesus, and in the case of the Mass, the priest is Jesus. Jesus faced the Apostles, so the priest faces the people.

I’m not stringent on this as it may appear. I can go either way but will submit to the authority of the Bishop.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

That’s right, but we do replicate the actions of Jesus, and in the case of the Mass, the priest is Jesus. Jesus faced the Apostles, so the priest faces the people.

Jim

Jim, Have you ever read then Cardinal Ratzinger’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”

+Ratzinger has an entire chapter on the theological superiority of the ad orientum position.

No offense, but I trust his theological expertice more than yours.

 

[Lepanto]

I know. I have been there several times since I live over near Telegraph in Southfield. The Masses are very traditional.

The Sunday 6pm Mass is charismatic praise-and-worship though.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, Have you ever read then Cardinal Ratzinger’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”

+Ratzinger has an entire chapter on the theological superiority of the ad orientum position.

No offense, but I trust his theological expertice more than yours.

How does Pope Benedict Celebrate the Mass, facing the people or with his back to them. If I remember right, he faces the people.

It wouldn’t be the first time Benedict contradicts his own statements.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

How does Pope Benedict Celebrate the Mass, facing the people or with his back to them. If I remember right, he faces the people.

It wouldn’t be the first time Benedict contradicts his own statements.

Jim

Actually, he both faces the people AND celebrates “ad orientem” since St. Peter’s liturgical west end is in the geographic east.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Actually, he both faces the people AND celebrates “ad orientem” since St. Peter’s liturgical west end is in the geographic east.

So he does face the people at times, when he says Mass.

So we come back to the authority of the Bishops. They set the norms for their dioceses.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

So he does face the people at times, when he says Mass.

So we come back to the authority of the Bishops. They set the norms for their dioceses.

Jim

It is my understanding that the Priest’s orientation does not fall under diocesan governance, that any priest (unless specifically instructed otherwise) may celebrate ad orientem at any time, just as any priest may celebrate the Mass of Paul VI in Latin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It is my understanding that the Priest’s orientation does not fall under diocesan governance, that any priest (unless specifically instructed otherwise) may celebrate ad orientem at any time, just as any priest may celebrate the Mass of Paul VI in Latin.

When it comes to placement of the altar, it is the Bishop who in fact has the authority.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

When it comes to placement of the altar, it is the Bishop who in fact has the authority.

Jim

Does that mean that in a church where the altar is may be addressed from either direction, that the priest may not exercise this liberty?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Does that mean that in a church where the altar is may be addressed from either direction, that the priest may not exercise this liberty?

From all that I have seen in the United States, the Bishop states what the norm will be. I have not seen any Mass in my dioceses, where the priest has his back to the people.

And in the case of Bishop Foley and Mother Angelica, I still hold the belief that the Masses at the monastery Church, not the monastery chapel, or the television chapel, are all said with the priest facing the people and its not just televised Masses.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

From all that I have seen in the United States, the Bishop states what the norm will be. I have not seen any Mass in my dioceses, where the priest has his back to the people.

And in the case of Bishop Foley and Mother Angelica, I still hold the belief that the Masses at the monastery Church, not the monastery chapel, or the television chapel, are all said with the priest facing the people and its not just televised Masses.

Jim

The Mass of Paul VI is routinely celebrated ad orientem (I reject out of hand the the phrase “with his back to the people” as it smacks of hostility, even where none may be intended) in Assumption Grotto in Detroit. Not a diocese given to excesses of liturgical recidivism.

 

[Brendan]

When it comes to placement of the altar, it is the Bishop who in fact has the authority.

Jim

Yes, the Bishop has final say over the architecture, but a priest may still licitily say the Mass from either side of the altar.

 

[Brendan]

From all that I have seen in the United States, the Bishop states what the norm will be. I have not seen any Mass in my dioceses, where the priest has his back to the people.

The Bishop may regulate liturical norms only in accordance with the Universal Law of the Church ( he may define Particular Law, but may not override Universal Norms without Vatican approval)

And in the case of Bishop Foley and Mother Angelica, I still hold the belief that the Masses at the monastery Church, not the monastery chapel, or the television chapel, are all said with the priest facing the people and its not just televised Masses.

You could hold that belief, but you would be wrong.

Have you picked up a copy of “Mother Angelica”, as I have mentioed before, Raymond Arroyo has interviewed the Vatican officials involved.

Jim