Labyrinths?

[fide]

part 1 of 3:

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St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross were masters of Contemplative Prayer. Both are in fact Doctors of the Church.

They don’t write about Labyrinths, but about prayer itself.

All a labyrinth does is serve as a type of outdoor rosary while one prays.

A labyrinth, when “explained” the way the Passionist site referenced before does, is more than merely “beads” with which one can pray whatever one chooses. They use terms that have meanings in Catholic spiritual theology, but in ways that mislead. That is, they do conflate spirituality with theology - and, contrary to one of your references, there is not one without the other. The purgative, illuminative and unitive stages of the interior life mean something, and they are not entered or engaged in a walk around a labyrinth!

Please read up on the stages by a traditional Catholic teacher of spirituality - Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. He taught at the Angelicum in Rome for 50 years! He wrote a masterful classic on the interior journey, The Three Ages of the Interior Life, describing in great detail the purgative, illuminative and unitive stages; the distinctions between ascetical and mystical prayer, the nature of infused contemplation, etc. etc.

Fr. Reginald Marie Garrigou-Lagrance, P.O. (1877-1964) was probably the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century. (He is not to be confused with his uncle, Pére Lagrange, the biblical scholar.) Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange initially attracted attention in the early 20th century when he wrote against Modernism. Recognizing that Modernism - which denied the objective truth of divine revelation, and affirmed a heretical conception of the evolution of dogma - struck at the very root of Catholic faith, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange wrote classic works on apologetics, defending the Catholic Faith by way of both philosophy and theology. He taught at the Angelicum in Rome from 1909 to 1960, and he served for many years as a consulter to the Holy Office and other Roman Congregations. He is most famous, however, for his writings, producing over 500 books and articles. In these he showed himself to be a thorough Thomist in the classic Dominican tradition.
Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was best known for his spiritual theology, particularly for insisting that all are called to holiness and for zealously propounding the thesis that infused contemplation and the resulting mystical life are in the normal way of holiness or Christian perfection. His classic work in this field - and his overall masterpiece - is the Three Ages of the Interior Life, in which the Catholic Faith stands out in all its splendor as a divine work of incomparable integrity, structure and beauty, ordered to raise man to the divine life of grace and bring to flower in him the “supernatural organism” of Sanctifying Grace and the Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost - the wellsprings of all true mysticism.​

You will NOT find him advocating labyrinths - nor enneagrams, nor yoga, nor the kind of prayer that is cited as not allowed in this forum, nor any other fad spirituality. He goes to the giants of Catholic tradition, and develops the true, the good and the beautiful in our Catholic spirituality.

 

[fide]

part 2 of 3

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So, because St Teresa and St John of the Cross don’t mention anything about Labyrinth’s, should we not use them ?

If a sincere seeker were to seek to learn from these masters, his life would be filled and he would not have time to experiment with questionable innovations or adaptations from other religions.

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They never use the word, “Contemplation,” nor “Contemplative Prayer.” Should we stop using these terms as well ?

You are simply wrong in that statement. Find The Ascent of Mt. Carmel (for one example of John’s writings) on-line and do a word search for "contemplation. I get 50 hits! Teresa’s Interior Castle on the 5th Mansions - the Prayer of Union - she explicitly uses the word “contemplation” which of course is the Prayer of Union.

In The Way of Perfection, ch 16, here is a portion from Teresa:

But contemplation, daughters, is another matter. This is an error which we all make: if a person gets so far as to spend a short time each day in thinking about his sins, as he is bound to do if he is a Christian in anything more than name, people at once call him a great contemplative; and then they expect him to have the rare virtues which a great contemplative is bound to possess; he may even think he has them himself, but he will be quite wrong. In his early stages he did not even know how to set out the chess-board, and thought that, in order to give checkmate, it would be enough to be able to recognize the pieces. But that is impossible, for this King does not allow Himself to be taken except by one who surrenders wholly to Him.

Therefore, daughters, if you want me to tell you the way to attain to contemplation, do allow me to speak at some length about these things, even if at the time they do not seem to you very important, for I think myself that they are. If you have no wish either to hear about them or to practise them, continue your mental prayer all your life; but in that case I assure you, and all persons who desire this blessing, that in my opinion you will not attain true contemplation. I may, of course, be wrong about this, as I am judging by my own experience, but I have been striving after contemplation for twenty years.

I will now explain what mental prayer is, as some of you will not understand this. God grant that we may practise it as we should! I am afraid, however, that, if we do not achieve the virtues, this can only be done with great labor, although the virtues are not necessary here in such a high degree as they are for contemplation. I mean that the King of glory will not come to our souls – that is, so as to be united with them – unless we strive to gain the greatest virtues.[47] I will explain this, for if you once catch me out in something which is not the truth, you will believe nothing I say – and if I were to say something untrue intentionally, from which may God preserve me, you would be right; but, if I did, it would be because I knew no better or did not understand what I said. I will tell you, then, that God is sometimes pleased to show great favor to persons who are in an evil state [and to raise them to perfect contemplation], so that by this means He may snatch them out of the hands of the devil. It must be understood, I think, that such persons will not be in mortal sin at the time.

They may be in an evil state, and yet the Lord will allow them to see a vision, even a very good one, in order to draw them back to Himself. But I cannot believe that He would grant them contemplation. For that is a Divine union, in which the Lord takes His delight in the soul and the soul takes its delight in Him; and there is no way in which the Purity of the Heavens can take pleasure in a soul that is unclean, nor can the Delight of the angels have delight in that which is not His own. And we know that, by committing mortal sin, a soul becomes the property of the devil, and must take its delight in him, since it has given him pleasure; and, as we know, his delights, even in this life, are continuous torture. My Lord will have no lack of children of His own in whom He may rejoice without going and taking the children of others. Yet His Majesty will do what He often does – namely, snatch them out of the devil’s hands.[48]​

 

[fide]

part 3 of 3

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Most monastics had some form of outdoor prayer path that they walked while praying.

I remember seeing a photo of a monastery where the path was in the shape of a heart, with a giant crucifix at the top. The monks walked and prayed in silence as they walked along the path, stopping at various points to reflect, meditate and enjoy being on God’s presence.

I am not opposing walking while praying. I am opposing the false theology of coupling a walk around a labyrinth with a journey through the three stages of the interior life.

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Anyway, not for me to convince you, but nor should you discourage others from using a labyrinth for the purpose of Christian prayer and meditation, especially when they’re receiving instruction from contemplative orders such as Carmelites or Benedictines.

Jim

The innocent seekers of holy wisdom, seeking to attain authentic communion with God in Christ through prayer, deserve to be shown authentic Catholic ways of attaining that noble goal. The labyrinth may be harmless and relaxing for those who know solid Catholic spirituality and theology - but those who are not solidly grounded may be led to believe that such a practice will actually advance their spiritual life - when in fact it is probably retarding it.

Jim, I’m sorry if I am the first one to say this to you, but titles, degrees and religious credentials - and religious habits - of spiritual teachers may or may not insure their competence as spiritual teachers or directors of souls. Here is a portion from The Living Flame of Love, John of the Cross, on “directors”:

29. The soul, then, should advert that God is the principal agent in this matter. He acts as guide of the blind, leading it by the hand to the place it knows not how to reach (to supernatural things of which neither its intellect nor will nor memory can know the nature). It should use all its principal care in watching so as not to place any obstacle in the way of God, its guide on this road ordained for it by him according to the perfection of his law and of the faith, as we said.

It can cause this obstacle by allowing itself to be led by another blind guide. There are three blind guides who can draw it off the road: the spiritual director, the devil, and the soul itself. So the soul may understand how this happens, we will briefly discuss each of these blind guides.

1. As regards the first, it is very important that individuals, desiring to advance in recollection and perfection, take care into whose hands they entrust themselves, for the disciple will become like the master, and as is the father so will be the son. Let them realize that for this journey, especially its most sublime parts (and even for the intermediate parts), they will hardly find a guide accomplished as to all their needs, for besides being learned and discreet, a director should have experience. Although the foundation for guiding a soul to spirit is knowledge and discretion, directors will not succeed in leading the soul onward in it when God bestows it, nor will they even understand it if they have no experience of what true and pure spirit is.
2. As a result, many spiritual masters cause great harm to a number of souls; not understanding the ways and properties of the spirit, they ordinarily make souls lose the unction of these delicate ointments with which the Holy Spirit anoints and prepares them for himself, and they instruct them in other inferior ways, serviceable only to beginners, which they themselves have used or read of somewhere. Knowing no more than what pertains to beginners - and please God they would even know this much - they do not wish to permit souls to pass beyond these beginnings and these discursive and imaginative ways (even though God may desire to lead them on). Thus they do not let them go beyond their natural capacity, but through their natural capacity souls cannot make much progress.

He then goes on to discuss the three stages - and the proper guidance of a good director in and through the stages. And he continues to explore the ways a “blind” spiritual director can not only fail to lead the soul to perfection, but can prevent him from entering.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I give up. I haven the time or energy to respond further.

I stand by what I’ve posted.

Jim

 

[fide]

I give up. I haven the time or energy to respond further.

I stand by what I’ve posted.

Jim

God be with you, Jim. May the Lord lead both of us into the fullness of His will.

 

[DBT]

I. Purgation (Emptying) ~ Walk slowly and breathe mindfully. Empty yourself of thoughts, burdens, and distractions. This is the time to open your heart and quiet your mind. Become empty like the great circle at the labyrinth’s center. Remember God is breathing with you and through you.

II. Illumination (Receiving) ~ When you reach the center, breathe mindfully and stay there as long as you like. This is a place of meditation and prayer. Receive from God what is there for you to receive. Imagine yourself as an empty vessel being filled with God’s love and peace. Remember that God lives at the center of your being.

III. Union (Returning) ~ As you leave, breathe mindfully and follow the same path out of the center as you came in. In your departing, you are joining God and God’s healing power at work in the world. Each time you walk the labyrinth you become more empowered to find and do the work you feel your soul reaching for.

I have no desire to weigh in on labyrinths but I would like to make one specific point.

Fide, please be careful making such black and white statements about prayer from definitions like these for terms like these can be understood (and experienced) on many different levels … especially as one’s perspective becomes more and more contemplative.

I believe you mentioned St. John of the Cross’ Ascent of Mount Carmel which is a very good place to immerse oneself into these concepts. I would encourage anyone interested to especially read book 3, chapters 1-15. These pertain to the purification of the memory … a key part of what he describes as the “active night of the spirit.”

The key takeaway is that a central part of the interior life - that we must actively endeavor to do if we hope to proceed to ever deeper union with Christ - is to continually and habitually redirect our thoughts so that a sense of presence to God is always with us. This is the purpose of what many spiritual writers call acquired contemplation … and others recollection and others still the practice of the presence of God.

In the beginning of this active effort on our part we tend to be affective in our thoughts and conversational. As we mature, thoughts will be less distracted (because we’ve trained ourselves) and perhaps more simple as aspirations replace “wordy-ness.” There is a true stillness of mind and heart that is at times the fruit of our effort (St. Teresa’s 3rd mansion) and divine (St. Teresa’s 4th mansion). Perhaps some would be so bold to think of this as “emptying.” And, of course, experience will show, we can gently move back and forth between these two rooms as St. Teresa calls them … even at the same time of prayer. What one might experience at such times might simply be called a simple gaze upon Truth … where “looking” at each other comprises the essence of the prayer.

And when we are brought to the true depths of infused contemplation … St. Teresa’s 5th mansion (Prayer of Union) even the faint hint of distraction (or even prayerful thoughts) are removed from us. There all we experience is a profound absence of such things … a void or oblivion as St. John of the Cross calls it. Emptiness in a literal sense because God has completely stilled our intellect, will and memory. That is the experience of this prayer.

Again, these terms and ideas have different meanings to different people and it’s largely based on experience. Long story short … we must teach ourselves to redirect our thoughts and still them so that we are in a perpetual state of “watching and waiting.” Then we will be truly prepared and disposed should God call in infused contemplation where “stilling” becomes “silencing.”

To use another expression that some consider new age from the quote above, the experience of all this changes from “God breathing in us” to “God breathing through us.” But I maintain there’s very Catholic understanding of these so-called objectionable terms too. In fact, St. John of the Cross expressly uses these phrases in the latter stanza’s of Spiritual Canticle to describe what it is like to live the unitive way. Where we become “God by participation” … another phrase that can make some uncomfortable.

Dave

 

[fide]

I have no desire to weigh in on labyrinths but I would like to make one specific point.

Fide, please be careful making such black and white statements about prayer from definitions like these for terms like these can be understood (and experienced) on many different levels … especially as one’s perspective becomes more and more contemplative.

…

Dave

Hello Dave - I intended to make NO statements about prayer, black and white or color, from the inaccurate use of the stages of prayer that is found on the website on labyrinths. I was objecting to the misunderstandings expressed! I was not in any way presenting those statements - as alleged to be enacted in a walk around their labyrinth - as proper meanings for those words.

This is what I posted:
++++++++++++++++++
The abuse of the terms purgation, illumination and union in the labyrinth methodology described on the “Walking the Labyrinth” page of the Holy Family Passionist Retreat Center site is just that - an abuse of good and valuable spiritual terms that mean something - namely the purgative stage, the illuminative stage and the unitive stage of the interior life. That page redefines them while emptying them of their true meaning and value.

This, from that webpage, is simply dangerous and misleading:
I. Purgation (Emptying) ~ Walk slowly and breathe mindfully. Empty yourself of thoughts, burdens, and distractions. This is the time to open your heart and quiet your mind. Become empty like the great circle at the labyrinth’s center. Remember God is breathing with you and through you.

II. Illumination (Receiving) ~ When you reach the center, breathe mindfully and stay there as long as you like. This is a place of meditation and prayer. Receive from God what is there for you to receive. Imagine yourself as an empty vessel being filled with God’s love and peace. Remember that God lives at the center of your being.

III. Union (Returning) ~ As you leave, breathe mindfully and follow the same path out of the center as you came in. In your departing, you are joining God and God’s healing power at work in the world. Each time you walk the labyrinth you become more empowered to find and do the work you feel your soul reaching for.
+++++++++++++++++++

Yes, read John of the Cross - or other trustworthy teachers of the spirituality of the three ways/ages of the interior life. Do not linger long with the distortions of those terms as they have been misapplied to walking around a labyrinth.

Please do not link my name to that box of spiritual confusion. I was rejecting it, not promoting it.

 

[DBT]

I was rejecting it, not promoting it.

Hello to you too fide.

Yes, I know full well you were rejecting it rather that promoting it.

I was simply responding to the stridency of your words and how easily you seem to condemn. That’s never a healthy thing to do. Setting aside the matter of labyrinths, I would simply like to point out how narrow your understanding of the purgative, illuminative and unitive way comes across. Speaking as a director of dozens of contemplative souls, you’re not helping your case.

Dave

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I have said this before and here I say it again: Jesus’ Blood washed the worst the Pagan world can offer – the cross: the most humiliating, excruciating death as punishment of the Roman Empire (heck, excruciātus was a word made by the Romans for the kind of suffering you would endure during crucifixion) – and made it the universal symbol of His Church. From then on, the Christian can use the best of the Pagan world and claim it for his own.

The Catholic Church is catholic (universal) in more ways than one

That’s why I think all this discussion is ridiculous. And an old one too! The first post was made eight years ago

 

[fide]

+JMJ+

… From then on, the Christian can use the best of the Pagan world and claim it for his own.

The Catholic Church is catholic (universal) in more ways than one

That’s why I think all this discussion is ridiculous. And an old one too! The first post was made eight years ago

As long as you mean in the word “best,” “that which is true.” That which is false in the pagan world must be corrected or omitted, The uses of the words referring to the three stages are simply wrong - abuses - misuses - misleading and confusing, and harmful to an authentic advance in the interior life.

Indiscriminate assimilation of pagan ideas and methods into Catholic prayer and/or theology is harmful. That which is good or harmless - fine, no problem when the truth of God therein is made clear. But that which is false must not be thoughtlessly embraced. Prudent discernment is essential. As UR 11, concerning ecumenism, points out:
11. The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.

Interreligious issues are at least as important, and perhaps more dangerous if pagan or other non-Christian theologies thereby sneak in as a Trojan horse into the Kingdom. Spirituality and theology are inseparable. Lex orandi, lex credenti.

 

[fide]

Hello to you too fide.

Yes, I know full well you were rejecting it rather that promoting it.

I was simply responding to the stridency of your words and how easily you seem to condemn. That’s never a healthy thing to do. Setting aside the matter of labyrinths, I would simply like to point out how narrow your understanding of the purgative, illuminative and unitive way comes across. Speaking as a director of dozens of contemplative souls, you’re not helping your case.

Dave

I know you no better than you know me, of course, but I hope that if my understanding of the three ways is too “narrow” for you, that your understanding is not so broad that the path is lost entirely to the pilgrims on it. The spiritual theology made beautifully precise by Arintero, Garrigou-Lagrange, and now others deserves clarity by seekers of authentic communion in Him.

Thank you, however, for your criticisms and implied advice.

 

[DBT]

that your understanding is not so broad that the path is lost entirely to the pilgrims on it.

No, not at all. You may note that I reserved my comments exclusively to the teachings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Jesus as it relates to “emptiness” … a word that causes some people to leap to new age digressions when in fact the concept is central to the interior life in the Catholic tradition. In fact, St. John’s Ascent is nothing else than an extended meditation on the radical self-emptying of sense and spirit that he calls NADA. And detachment is the means by which we accomplish this sense of emptiness of all things while God achieves the same effect on a much deeper level through the passive trials of the Dark Night.

And all the formulaic structures laid out in these writings … for example, the purgative/illuminative/unitive ways of St. John, the mansions of St. Teresa … are designed to show how we proceed by degrees to ever deeper levels of emptiness from both an ascetical and mystical point of view.

What most seems to trouble people is the concept of emptiness as it relates to the experience of prayer … St. Teresa’s concept of prayer states. The simple truth is that the letting go of thoughts and stilling our mind is not a new age concept but central to the contemplative experience. In fact, the simple desire to do this is the principal sign St. John gives to instruct the souls when to give up meditation for the “loving attentiveness” of simply resting in His presence and looking at Him. Then, God willing, stilling on our part becomes silencing on His … as the prayer of simplicity becomes true infused contemplation. And what type of words are used to describe this experience? How about suspension, absorption, oblivion, void, spiritual sleep to name just a few. Again, emptiness in a God given way … His gift to us.

Dave

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

That which is false in the pagan world must be corrected or omitted,

Then do this. All I have read from you is the wrong way of using labyrinths, and therefore “do not use the labyrinth”. I mean…really? Cannot you see anything wrong with what you have said?

There are right ways of using the labyrinth and mazes. First off, they are fun, why attach any religious significance to that? Then there’s the labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral in France:

youtube.com/watch?v=fgYcxTL5gjY

Then there is my way of enjoying mazes and labyrinths. Do you know that there is an infallible way of getting through mazes? Try it in paper mazes and you will see this is true. It is to stick to one wall as you pass through the maze. And I use this as a metaphor for living life correctly: stick to God as you walk through life, and keep on moving.

Is there anything wrong with that?

 

[fide]

No, not at all. You may note that I reserved my comments exclusively to the teachings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Jesus as it relates to “emptiness” … a word that causes some people to leap to new age digressions when in fact the concept is central to the interior life in the Catholic tradition. In fact, St. John’s Ascent is nothing else than an extended meditation on the radical self-emptying of sense and spirit that he calls NADA. And detachment is the means by which we accomplish this sense of emptiness of all things while God achieves the same effect on a much deeper level through the passive trials of the Dark Night.

And all the formulaic structures laid out in these writings … for example, the purgative/illuminative/unitive ways of St. John, the mansions of St. Teresa … are designed to show how we proceed by degrees to ever deeper levels of emptiness from both an ascetical and mystical point of view.

What most seems to trouble people is the concept of emptiness as it relates to the experience of prayer … St. Teresa’s concept of prayer states. The simple truth is that the letting go of thoughts and stilling our mind is not a new age concept but central to the contemplative experience. In fact, the simple desire to do this is the principal sign St. John gives to instruct the souls when to give up meditation for the “loving attentiveness” of simply resting in His presence and looking at Him. Then, God willing, stilling on our part becomes silencing on His … as the prayer of simplicity becomes true infused contemplation. And what type of words are used to describe this experience? How about suspension, absorption, oblivion, void, spiritual sleep to name just a few. Again, emptiness in a God given way … His gift to us.

Dave

Hi Dave.

I don’t want to prolong this - a book would be required. I’ve already recommended several books, so I’ll let that be my closing attempt to say what needs t be said. There is a journey through the stages; it is not accomplished in a labyrinth walk. May the Lord lead and guide all who want to grow in Him, by way of the trustworthy teachers He has enlightened.

 

[fide]

+JMJ+

Then do this. All I have read from you is the wrong way of using labyrinths, and therefore “do not use the labyrinth”. I mean…really? Cannot you see anything wrong with what you have said?

There are right ways of using the labyrinth and mazes. First off, they are fun, why attach any religious significance to that? Then there’s the labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral in France:

youtube.com/watch?v=fgYcxTL5gjY

Then there is my way of enjoying mazes and labyrinths. Do you know that there is an infallible way of getting through mazes? Try it in paper mazes and you will see this is true. It is to stick to one wall as you pass through the maze. And I use this as a metaphor for living life correctly: stick to God as you walk through life, and keep on moving.

Is there anything wrong with that?

Hello nuntym,

The closing response below is applicable here as well, to you:
++++++++++++
I don’t want to prolong this - a book would be required. I’ve already recommended several books, so I’ll let that be my closing attempt to say what needs to be said. There is a journey through the stages; it is not accomplished in a labyrinth walk. May the Lord lead and guide all who want to grow in Him, by way of the trustworthy teachers He has enlightened.
++++++++++++
I’ll add this, though: The most important pursuit in life is of “religious significance.” The search for God, the true and the one and only God is the greatest pursuit - adventure - challenge - that can seize upon the heart and soul of a man. There is much that could be called “fun” along the way! God does have a sense of humor - I believe that. But on the other hand, it is a very dangerous thing to make light of what is truly holy - to fail to keep one’s heart sensitive to that which deserves holy reverence. The danger being, a heart deadened to the holy is growing to become blind to it. So be careful, please.

In my judgment, the “best way to use a labyrinth” is to avoid it entirely. Seek and find the methodologies of the spiritual giants of our Catholic Tradition.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

There is a journey through the stages; it is not accomplished in a labyrinth walk.

And who keeps on harping that a possible (and wrong) use of a “labyrinth walk” is spiritual enlightenment? No one here does but you. Get it?

I’ll add this, though: The most important pursuit in life is of “religious significance.” The search for God, the true and the one and only God is the greatest pursuit - adventure - challenge - that can seize upon the heart and soul of a man. There is much that could be called “fun” along the way! God does have a sense of humor - I believe that. But on the other hand, it is a very dangerous thing to make light of what is truly holy - to fail to keep one’s heart sensitive to that which deserves holy reverence. The danger being, a heart deadened to the holy is growing to become blind to it. So be careful, please.

Again, :banghead:. Who among us here is NOT sensitive to what is holy here? Your fear of finding what is wrong to what is around you seems to deaden you to finding God in the ordinary. We found good things in mazes and the labyrinth. You seem to only see the one bad thing about them, and from that closed your heart to even considering that people may find a glimpse of God in them.

In my judgment, the “best way to use a labyrinth” is to avoid it entirely. Seek and find the methodologies of the spiritual giants of our Catholic Tradition.

You mean like this?

And to such an outpour of love all creation bids us–nothing that He has made but is filled with the praise of God, and, as says S. Augustine, **everything in the world speaks silently but clearly to the lovers of God of their love, exciting them to holy desires, whence gush forth aspirations and loving cries to God. **

catholictreasury.info/books/devout_life/dev36.php

 

[DBT]

Hi Dave.

I don’t want to prolong this - a book would be required. I’ve already recommended several books, so I’ll let that be my closing attempt to say what needs t be said. There is a journey through the stages; it is not accomplished in a labyrinth walk. May the Lord lead and guide all who want to grow in Him, by way of the trustworthy teachers He has enlightened.

I have no desire to prolong either fide. But I return one last time in an attempt to help your understanding.

First, put the books down and start living this stuff. Second, look at all these theological structures for what they are: a general guide rather than a literal roadmap. There’s nothing worse than to use these teachings as a cudgel to beat someone over the head with simply because a word or idea they used doesn’t match exactly the formula laid out by some saint. Nobody goes through these stages and states in precisely the same way and the worst thing one can do is look at them in a linear, black and white way … A begets B which begets C and so on.

To illustrate, it is wrong from a real-life perspective to tell people they must go through purgation before receiving illumination and then union. In reality, there is no “natural progression” that is common for all as you say is the case … that’s just a formula to describe general processes. When analyzing an individual’s spiritual state from both a mystical and ascetical perspective, the director will most likely see some aspects that might be unitive while in other areas they have not yet even begun to be purged. These things are fluid … dynamic … holistic; not structured and rigid.

I will illustrate further from my own personal experience using St. Teresa’s mansions which of course most discussions on these forums (wrongly) describe in a sequential pattern beginning with 1 and ending in 7. I was the biggest heathen there was when, on Sep 17th 2002 at 8AM God struck with a St. Paul on the road to Damascus moment that completely changed the direction of my life … what St. Teresa calls an intellectual vision. But how could I have a mansion 6 experience when, in reality, I was still in the moat outside the castle with my hand not even on the door that opens mansion 1? And why did all my ensuing trials relate to matter of the spirit – the true Dark Night – when I had yet to even deal with matters of sense? Because, of course, the literal interpretation of St. John is that sense must be purged before spirit, right? And for a person who never prayed, why did I skip meditation on my journey? Because meditation always precedes simplicity which begets contemplation, right? Why did I begin my prayer life from the point of contemplation and skip or miss all the proceeding steps?

The answer is simple: that’s the way God chose to work in my life. And the way he works is different for me than it is for you than it is for everyone else in the world. We are unique individuals and God speaks to us in ways that are most helpful and beneficial to us for the sole purpose of helping us know Him and love Him more.

So while there are general patterns to things … there are no rigid rules. I prayerfully hope you can begin to see that. Then perhaps you might see that the so-called new-ager might in fact be the most orthodox, mansion 7 saint among us.

Dave

 

[fide]

I have no desire to prolong either fide. But I return one last time in an attempt to help your understanding.

First, put the books down and start living this stuff. Second, look at all these theological structures for what they are: a general guide rather than a literal roadmap. There’s nothing worse than to use these teachings as a cudgel to beat someone over the head with simply because a word or idea they used doesn’t match exactly the formula laid out by some saint. Nobody goes through these stages and states in precisely the same way and the worst thing one can do is look at them in a linear, black and white way … A begets B which begets C and so on.

To illustrate, it is wrong from a real-life perspective to tell people they must go through purgation before receiving illumination and then union. In reality, there is no “natural progression” that is common for all as you say is the case … that’s just a formula to describe general processes. When analyzing an individual’s spiritual state from both a mystical and ascetical perspective, the director will most likely see some aspects that might be unitive while in other areas they have not yet even begun to be purged. These things are fluid … dynamic … holistic; not structured and rigid.

I will illustrate further from my own personal experience using St. Teresa’s mansions which of course most discussions on these forums (wrongly) describe in a sequential pattern beginning with 1 and ending in 7. I was the biggest heathen there was when, on Sep 17th 2002 at 8AM God struck with a St. Paul on the road to Damascus moment that completely changed the direction of my life … what St. Teresa calls an intellectual vision. But how could I have a mansion 6 experience when, in reality, I was still in the moat outside the castle with my hand not even on the door that opens mansion 1? And why did all my ensuing trials relate to matter of the spirit – the true Dark Night – when I had yet to even deal with matters of sense? Because, of course, the literal interpretation of St. John is that sense must be purged before spirit, right? And for a person who never prayed, why did I skip meditation on my journey? Because meditation always precedes simplicity which begets contemplation, right? Why did I begin my prayer life from the point of contemplation and skip or miss all the proceeding steps?

The answer is simple: that’s the way God chose to work in my life. And the way he works is different for me than it is for you than it is for everyone else in the world. We are unique individuals and God speaks to us in ways that are most helpful and beneficial to us for the sole purpose of helping us know Him and love Him more.

So while there are general patterns to things … there are no rigid rules. I prayerfully hope you can begin to see that. Then perhaps you might see that the so-called new-ager might in fact be the most orthodox, mansion 7 saint among us.

Dave

Dave, you seem fully convinced. I wish you well, sincerely.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

In my judgment, the “best way to use a labyrinth” is to avoid it entirely. Seek and find the methodologies of the spiritual giants of our Catholic Tradition.

Are you just talking about labyrinths used in a religious sense or are you implying all labyrinths in general?

 

[fide]

Are you just talking about labyrinths used in a religious sense or are you implying all labyrinths in general?

I recommend avoiding labyrinths only as a religious object - as a work of art they can be beautiful and decorative, in gardens they can be attractive, and so on. To grow in the life of prayer, however, I think they are diversions and distractions. In the Catholic Church we have true spiritual directors, and the path they describe is a journey that begins with repentance and grace, and calls for an active struggle against sin and deliberate guarding of holy grace and intentional remaining in the Lord - in His Word - that we might grow in Him as disciples. Much follows that, but that is the beginning.