Lack of a physical relationship between a married couple

[mommamaree]

I think this is a classic case of bait and switch. She acted one way before marriage and completely different after marriage. She probably led you to believe there would be sex after marriage because she wanted you for other reasons (money, security, just not to be alone…pick one).

If I were you I would civilly divorce her and submit a request for a declaration of nullity from your diocese’s marriage tribunal, based on fraud and on her intention to never honor her marital obligations, which was probably present at the time of the wedding.

Zeemeermin,
While I have appreciated your posts in other threads, I must strongly disagree with you here. We should not attempt to judge the intentions of the wife. We have no idea what has been going through her mind and heart all these years. We do not know her struggles, her pain. We only know what the OP has been willing to reveal about his actions and his pain and his struggles. It is never wise to advise someone to divorce their mate. In cases of abuse, advising separation may be the wise thing to do in order to protect the abused spouse, but we have no authority to tell someone to end their marriage and seek an anullment.

Edited to Add: I know that to admonish the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy that we as Christians are obligated to do for each other, but that is not what is happening in this case. Actions may be objectively sinful, and if so, we are often led by the Holy Spirit to admonish the sinner out of love for them. But calling into question her inner intentions is not the same as objecting to an outward action that one knows to be sinful. By way of example, mentioning that it is sinful to withhold sexual relations from one’s spouse, except by mutual consent, for a time, and with prayer and fasting (as in the case of an illness that might require abstinence) would be admonishing the sinner. Saying that someone was ‘baiting and switching’ and intended from the beginning to withhold sex is not appropriate, nor is it loving.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Oral sex is considered sinful even if the couple is married?
I did not know this. Does that mean sex is only used for baby making in marriage too?
is using birthcontrol in marriage sinful? what if the girl climaxes?
how on earth is oral sex sinful in a marriage? this is news to me.

EDIT: here, i just found this:

christiananswers.net/q-eden/sex-oral.html

thoughts??

 

[Zeemeermin]

Artificial birth control is sinful. Natural methods are permitted.

Sex has two purposes: the procreative (making babies) and the unitive (bonding the couple)

Oral sex completed to male ejaculation somewhere other than the vagina is not a sex act that is open to the transmission of life, and is therefore not allowed. Oral sex as foreplay, with ejaculation in the vagina, is allowed, as is oral sex on the woman, even to orgasm, as long as it is not a substitute for valid, vaginal marital intercourse.

That link does not reflect the Catholic perspective or the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[mommamaree]

Artificial birth control is sinful. Natural methods are permitted.

Sex has two purposes: the procreative (making babies) and the unitive (bonding the couple)

Oral sex completed to male ejaculation somewhere other than the vagina is not a sex act that is open to the transmission of life, and is therefore not allowed. Oral sex as foreplay, with ejaculation in the vagina, is allowed, as is oral sex on the woman, even to orgasm, as long as it is not a substitute for valid, vaginal marital intercourse.

That link does not reflect the Catholic perspective or the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Zeermeermin has succinctly summarized the basics of what is permissable for Christians, BlueShadow. I would like to add that the natural methods of spacing births that are permissable are usually referred to as periodic abstinence or natural family planning, or NFP. And also I wanted to stress that the female orgasm is treated differently in Church teachings than the male orgasm. My understanding is that the reason for that is the female orgasm is designed to bring about enjoyment and bonding, but is not necessary for procreation. So it is loving for the husband to bring about a climax for his wife, even if it requires stimulation beyond genital contact. I hope I am explaining that correctly.

 

[Zeemeermin]

And if you don’t get that declaration, you’re stuck with a civil divorce and you can’t re-marry, which means you’re still not having your “needs” met.

Just saying

But you’re also not stuck in the torture of having to pretend, or to live with a person who demonstrates their disdain for you on a daily basis. Alone is better than that.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Artificial birth control is sinful. Natural methods are permitted.

Sex has two purposes: the procreative (making babies) and the unitive (bonding the couple)

Oral sex completed to male ejaculation somewhere other than the vagina is not a sex act that is open to the transmission of life, and is therefore not allowed. Oral sex as foreplay, with ejaculation in the vagina, is allowed, as is oral sex on the woman, even to orgasm, as long as it is not a substitute for valid, vaginal marital intercourse.

That link does not reflect the Catholic perspective or the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Ok, that make sense. I honestly thought you meant that there is absolutely no way oral is un-sinful.

But as for birthcontrol, you mean that you can only have sex if you want a kid? due to the fact that your saying the guy cant [edited] outside of her body. Well then thats basically getting yourself pregnant right there. And yes, i know that during the month there are days that the girl is not fertile, but having sex without BC is just asking for a baby to come along.

If thats the case, then i’d assume many catholics are lacking sex in their marriage

 

[Zeemeermin]

Haven’t you noticed how many Catholics have large families? I remember a scene from All in the Family where Archie Bunker got stuck in an elevator with a Hispanic couple. The woman was pregnant and went into labor. The couple were talking about their other kids… and Archie says, “Why do you have so many kids, anyway?!” And the husband, a supreme example of strong Catholic manhood if you ask me, tells Archie, “We have so many children because we love each other so much!” It was an awesome scene.

NFP methods allow a couple to know when they are, or are not, fertile. They can have sex only during the infertile times if they feel they should not have a child at that time. Done correctly, NFP is as or more effective than birth control pills. It does, obviously, take a lot of willpower and maturity. I used Sympto-Thermal, and that thermal shift that occurs when you ovulate leaves you in no doubt. Once you see it, you are in the clear… it is impossible for you to get pregnant the rest of the month.

 

[lovemyboys]

And if you don’t get that declaration, you’re stuck with a civil divorce and you can’t re-marry, which means you’re still not having your “needs” met.

Just saying

If she reallly refuses him and has the intention to refuse him forever when he is not on board with celibacy, there is no doubt that it is not a valid marriage. He totally has grounds for an annulment. It’s not called the “act of marriage” for nothing.

However, if he is wililng to live like this, they can both decide to be celibate. Then the marriage is still valid. It’s all in how he wants to live, really…

And on a positive note, some people on here have recently written about how people will get more rewards in heaven for being celibates (because they make such a sacrifice, I suppose).

 

[mommamaree]

Ok, that make sense. I honestly thought you meant that there is absolutely no way oral is un-sinful.

But as for birthcontrol, you mean that you can only have sex if you want a kid?

If thats the case, then i’d assume many catholics are lacking sex in their marriage

No, that is not what that means. Thank goodness! No, we don’t need to INTEND to have a baby every time we engage in marital relations. That is confusing the intent with the means. Whenever we engage in marital relations, we must do so in a way that is ordered to procreation, meaning, normal male-female vaginal intercourse. That doesn’t mean that we must intend to get pregnant with each encounter. In fact, the Church allows for couples to monitor their fertility signs in order to avail themselves of the infertile periods of the woman’s cycle, while abstaining during the fertile times. There are several scientific/medical methods that a couple might use to collect data about the wife’s fertility, but they are generally referred to as NFP.
NFP is a reliable method for spacing births or achieving pregnancy, depending upon the intent of the user. But anytime intercourse happens, it happens in such a way as to not frustrate either the procreative or unitive ends. I hope that clears up your questions.

 

[Melchior_1]

If she reallly refuses him and has the intention to refuse him forever when he is not on board with celibacy, there is no doubt that it is not a valid marriage. He totally has grounds for an annulment. It’s not called the “act of marriage” for nothing.

However, if he is wililng to live like this, they can both decide to be celibate. Then the marriage is still valid. It’s all in how he wants to live, really…

Keep in mind her refusal might not be her choice. Hormonal imbalance plus a chemical imbalance in the brain can be pretty debilitating, especially when trying to find the right medications.

 

[JohnVIII]

Wow! I do appechate all your postings trying to give me advice and help me, I do really. But This has gone all over the place and I need to straiten it out a bit.

Not married here but I feel your wife is the one sinning not you. Will pray for your family though.

I take that as sympathy (or empathy) for me. Thank you! But the truth is that if it were my wife posting here instead of me your love would be reaching out to her instead and you might say that I’m the one sinning not her. The evil one has worked on both my wife and I and has had a lot of success. If any one person must be to blame then it must be me, not her. Never assume that when someone does something that is bad that they have done so from a standpoint of being fully aware that what they have done was wrong, or that they did it willingly, without some outside overbearing pressure. I do judge my wife, but I judge her to be innocent because I believe that deep down she does love me, this is how I see Christ’s love for me. And by the way, if you think that I’m sounding spiritual right now, well I guarantee you that it is a fact that my wife is lightyears more spiritual than I am. If you side with one of us then side with my wife, please. - Thank you for your prayers! We need them.

…Just cuddle with her, let her know you love her and start making your hand reach places. you never know what will happen then…Im only trying to help. …

Thanks for trying to help. If our root problem was based on physical issues we would have no real issues at all. The root problems are emotional. When we were not celibate we did much the same as what you said, but I was not Roman Catholic back then, so … Thanks, anyway.

I think this is a classic case of bait and switch. She acted one way before marriage and completely different after marriage. She probably led you to believe there would be sex after marriage because she wanted you for other reasons (money, security, just not to be alone…pick one).

If I were you I would civilly divorce her and submit a request for a declaration of nullity from your diocese’s marriage tribunal, based on fraud and on her intention to never honor her marital obligations, which was probably present at the time of the wedding.

There was no “bait and switch”. We enjoyed physical love as a married couple for a few years after marriage. It wasn’t for money, I was a poor man then and I’m still poor. We both wanted security, that’s not a bad thing. If we end up getting an annulment it’s not going to be because of fraud. From my point of view it will really be because of Gods mercy. It would say that it is because of some legal technicality, but really it would be because of mercy. Unfortunately mercy is not a valid reason to get an annulment. I used to be Eastern Orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox have “Church Divorce” there!

…We should not attempt to judge the intentions of the wife. We have no idea what has been going through her mind and heart all these years. We do not know her struggles, her pain. We only know what the OP has been willing to reveal about his actions and his pain and his struggles. It is never wise to advise someone to divorce their mate. In cases of abuse, advising separation may be the wise thing to do in order to protect the abused spouse, but we have no authority to tell someone to end their marriage and seek an anullment.

Thanks, I agree with what you say. But in all honesty I was kind of hoping someone would say that it is ok to divorce and seek an annulment. But if I did it I would do it because I think it is what is best for my wife. Perhaps I should add that before I meant my wife she was a novice sister for three years in a Franciscan convent. I knew her and was friends with her for several years before we got married. When I first knew her I thought her calling was to be a sister. Now, I know that she would be happier single, but if we part from each other she may not stay in her happy single state, but end up getting together with someone else and maybe be unhappy again. It’s possible that it might be Gods will that we remain together so that we can grow and eventually learn to overcome our issues and be happy as a couple. If that is the case I have no clue how that miracle can happen! There was a time when I though I’d like to become a monk, but the only reason I never pursued that is because I was sure I couldn’t handle the celibacy. If I only knew that I would end up expecting to live a celibate life anyway I probably would have become a monk. Gods practical jokes can hurt a little sometimes!

…And also I wanted to stress that the female orgasm is treated differently in Church teachings than the male orgasm. My understanding is that the reason for that is the female orgasm is designed to bring about enjoyment and bonding, but is not necessary for procreation. So it is loving for the husband to bring about a climax for his wife, even if it requires stimulation beyond genital contact…

Once again, “Wow”! I didn’t know that.

 

[onmyknees]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommamaree View Post
…And also I wanted to stress that the female orgasm is treated differently in Church teachings than the male orgasm. My understanding is that the reason for that is the female orgasm is designed to bring about enjoyment and bonding, but is not necessary for procreation. So it is loving for the husband to bring about a climax for his wife, even if it requires stimulation beyond genital contact…

Once again, “Wow”! I didn’t know that. Quote by John V111.

Hi JohnV111, Maybe this might be part of why your wife is not interested in relations.

I have a medical condition that makes intercourse painful for me but my dh and I have a good sex life. We are able to both reach orgasm. It is permissible to just enter into your wife a little bit and ejaculate a small amount there and then the rest somewhere else. I know this is not ideal but it is better than no orgasm. Hope this helps.

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[onmyknees]

If she reallly refuses him and has the intention to refuse him forever when he is not on board with celibacy, there is no doubt that it is not a valid marriage. He totally has grounds for an annulment. It’s not called the “act of marriage” for nothing.

However, if he is wililng to live like this, they can both decide to be celibate. Then the marriage is still valid. It’s all in how he wants to live, really…

And on a positive note, some people on here have recently written about how people will get more rewards in heaven for being celibates (because they make such a sacrifice, I suppose).

I have been told that a marriage can only be annulled if there is something before the marriage vows that made the vows invalid. It cannot be something that happens during the marriage unless it was never consummated.

 

[Tiribulus]

I’m almost never at a loss for words, but I have no idea how to respond to this thread which probably means I should shut up. I do get the feeling we’re not being told everything here, but I obviously have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[BlueShadow123]

No, that is not what that means. Thank goodness! No, we don’t need to INTEND to have a baby every time we engage in marital relations. That is confusing the intent with the means. Whenever we engage in marital relations, we must do so in a way that is ordered to procreation, meaning, normal male-female vaginal intercourse. That doesn’t mean that we must intend to get pregnant with each encounter. In fact, the Church allows for couples to monitor their fertility signs in order to avail themselves of the infertile periods of the woman’s cycle, while abstaining during the fertile times. There are several scientific/medical methods that a couple might use to collect data about the wife’s fertility, but they are generally referred to as NFP.
NFP is a reliable method for spacing births or achieving pregnancy, depending upon the intent of the user. But anytime intercourse happens, it happens in such a way as to not frustrate either the procreative or unitive ends. I hope that clears up your questions.

But if he does ejaculate in the female, then as somebody posted earlier, oral sex can be engaged in, correct? obviously no anal sex, or at least i hope not! I know many believers engage in anal sex, however ive done research and it is NOT physically healthy at all. and personally, i think its gross, and i assume it would be painful.

 

[onmyknees]

But if he does ejaculate in the female, then as somebody posted earlier, oral sex can be engaged in, correct? obviously no anal sex, or at least i hope not! I know many believers engage in anal sex, however ive done research and it is NOT physically healthy at all. and personally, i think its gross, and i assume it would be painful.

Catholics can never engage in oral sex per say. We can engage in oral foreplay but it must always end with the possibility of giving life even if the couple is unable to have children. If the wife is unable to reach a climax either before or during intercourse the husband can then help his wife to reach an orgasm.

 

[onmyknees]

Quote from JohnV111

So what do I do? Should I divorce (get an annulment), then after a few years find someone else and get married again? I absolutely know for a fact that I could never love another woman as deeply as I loved my wife. In my heart she will always be the ONLY one for me. But, to avoid sin, I could learn to love another woman some day and if I’m lucky we might not have such problems caring for each other. If this all happens then I might be able to get closer to God and serve Him better. Is this the only answer? Is this even an answer?

---

John, I keep thinking about what you wrote here and I think maybe God wants you to go through this terrible suffering to get closer to Him and serve Him better. I don’t think God would want you to divorce or get an annulment.

I have been married for a long time and I know many people who have divorced or received an annulment to remarry thinking it would be better. But after a few years of being remarried reality sets in and the lovey dovey feelings are gone. You see love true love is about suffering for the other. It is a sacrificial love. It is our vocation and what Jesus will judge us by. We are to help get our spouse to heaven. This is your answer even if it is hard for you to accept. I will pray for you and your wife.

 

[Zeemeermin]

Lack of marital sex is about more than the “lovey dovey” feelings being gone. And marital sex is about much, much more than “lovey dovey” feelings. That post is insulting and so very minimizing of a very important issue. Boo.

*Necessary *suffering can be redemptive. Unnecessary suffering is just cruelty and remedy should be sought.

 

[JohnVIII]

Lack of marital sex is about more than the “lovey dovey” feelings being gone. And marital sex is about much, much more than “lovey dovey” feelings. That post is insulting and so very minimizing of a very important issue. Boo.

*Necessary *suffering can be redemptive. Unnecessary suffering is just cruelty and remedy should be sought.

If I could handle it I think Boo ([user]onmyknees[/user]) is right. And I think “Unnecessary suffering” can be redemptive too if I could accept it with the right attitude. In the Book, “The Ladder of Divine Assent”, it quotes the scripture: “…be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke…” (2 Timothy 4:2) and says that the spiritual interpretation “out of season” means to receive rebuke gladly when in is undeserved. But can I handle it? I really don’t think that I can!

John, I keep thinking about what you wrote here and I think maybe God wants you to go through this terrible suffering to get closer to Him and serve Him better. I don’t think God would want you to divorce or get an annulment.

I have been married for a long time and I know many people who have divorced or received an annulment to remarry thinking it would be better. But after a few years of being remarried reality sets in and the lovey dovey feelings are gone. You see love true love is about suffering for the other. It is a sacrificial love. It is our vocation and what Jesus will judge us by. We are to help get our spouse to heaven. This is your answer even if it is hard for you to accept. I will pray for you and your wife.

Thank you for your prayers, I need them! I really do want to say that I think you are right. But once again I don’t think I can handle this, and more importantly, I don’t think my wife can handle it either! I have tried to take the hard road so many times in the past that I even had “a saying” that goes, “The hard way is always the only why”. But I fear that I will surly fail at this, and the result of my failure is alot of hurt to my wife. I need to protect her, but if I see alot of pain coming her way, and that so because of my probable failure, how then can I not do something to protect her?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I have been told that a marriage can only be annulled if there is something before the marriage vows that made the vows invalid. It cannot be something that happens during the marriage unless it was never consummated.

Yeah.

My dear friend, John VIII, know that I attended Mass yesterday and offered it for you and for your family. I saw your post, just didn’t have time to reply.

Go to sacramental confession, don’t worry about not having the strength to live up to your promise not to sin anymore. Just make the promise and ask God to send his grace and to strengthen you, since you are not strong enough to do it, without his help. St. Anthony of Padua, the glorious saint depicted with a lily symbolising his purity, did not believe in his own strength. He counted on God to help him keep his purity, and would pray three Hail Marys asking the Theotokos to intercede for him, whenever he was in need or temptation.

It seems like God played a practical joke on you, indeed. You married to avoid the impossible requirement of sexual abstinence, but now you face the same demand in your marriage. Based on what you posted, your marriage seems valid at first sight (not that I know enough Canon Law to say this with any degree of confidence). These are just educated guesses and you better talk to your priest.

But, as onmyknees said, the Church looks at what were you both thinking on your wedding day. Were you both open to having sex, and having babies in case that God blessed you with babies? Did you mean it for a lifetime? etc. So, if you had a normal sexual life in the beginning, were open to children (no artificial birth control), and if there were no other conditions (defect of consent, deceit/fraud, etc) to invalidate the marriage on the day of the wedding, it doesn’t really matter that your wife developed an aversion to sex later on, a few or several years into the marriage. Well, if she had an aversion from before, but somehow covered that up before marriage, deceiving you to marry her based on the false belief that she is open to physical intimacy and to babies, that could be grounds for annullment. But you say this was not the case. Thus, if you entered into a valid marriage, the fact that later on she came to dislike marital intimacy, possibly even developed some mental health problems that were not there in the beginning, etc, these things cannot undo the fact that you entered a valid marriage that will only cease to exist when one of you dies.

On another note, thanks for that explanation about “out of season”, and how we should welcome rebukes even when we believe that we are unfairly criticized. This is of great help to me, now. Who wrote that book, The Ladder of Divine Ascent?