Lack of deacons proves celibacy is not a reason for priest shortage ? - WRONG

[po18guy]

Celibacy is a gift. When men stop asking for it, they will not receive it. Priests come from the surrounding culture, and as we know, the culture is rotten and sex-saturated.

 

[e_c]

the attraction to the married diaconate absolutely pales in comparison, almost infinitely so, to the attraction of the married priesthood. and if we were to allow it, it is my opinion that this would definitely help solve the shortage in priests.

the problem is not the God isnt calling young men, the problem is that so many young men, due to their desire for marriage, are invincibly ignorant to the priestly calling. they would never even consider being a priest because of their desire to be married, and so when God calls, they dont listen. and those who do hear his call may consider it for a while, but considering their options, they would rather be married and have kids than be a priest. after all, theyll still get the Sacraments and the rosary in this life either way.

There would be a bump in numbers, at first… Then come the plethora of problems, which surely do not need to be reiterated, but they break into three main categories: spiritual, prophetic, and economic. You usually only hear about the last one - the money, the time, the energy… It is the least important category. And then, after a while, the numbers would level out and eventually - most likely - decline again. It would not be as “special” in people’s minds, right? And people would see all the difficulties of such a split life.

And let’s stir the pot, just a little bit… You do know that, if the law were really followed, even permanent deacons (Latin Rite) would be obliged to promise perfect and perpetual continence, even if they are married? (Of course, those already ordained can’t be held to this if they did not promise it.) This is why the wife must give permission! (This would hold for priests coming from separated communions as well… But again, it is a law which is widely ignored. The several documents from the PCLT did not settle the matter as they did not receive a signature from the Holy Father, which is required for an authentic interpretation according to the normative document Pastor Bonus.)

 

[MSSheBear]

:twocents: I grew up in the Protestant tradition and I am accustomed to married clergy. Others have mentioned that the Catholic Church only ordains married men so the candidate would have to be married early.

I would like to mention that Protestants are totally accepting that God usually calls men to pastor a church where they can afford a house on their salary and in some churches it is expected for the pastor’s wife to work. In other churches that would be unthinkable so the pastor himself often gets a second job.

Also as far as the priest having the “glory” it seems to me the priest is one of the most harassed people at the parish.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Goodbye Good Men - Michael Rose

Exactly!

 

[Mary_Estelle]

I wouldn’t mind becoming a priest and celibacy is fine by me. Oops, can’t do it I’m a woman. How about a nun? Oops can’t do it because I’m old. Deacon? Oops can’t do it I’m a woman.

I really would like to become a nun, but no order takes a 51-yr old dinosaur (at least of what I’ve found).

That is incorrect. There are many communities that now accept older woman into their orders. Do some homework and you will find them. Peace.

 

[GEddie]

That’s not true, that no orders will take nuns over 51.

Although it will be harder, keep looking. IMS, Saint Rita of Cascia ran into the same difficulty.

ICXC NIKA

 

[pianistclare]

Glory? This is not the 1950s. Priests are glorified far less than most husbands/fathers. They are also overworked, ridiculed, criticized, judged, not only by the secular society but by many Catholics.

In our diocese, deacons are administrators of many parishes. No glory for them either.

Or maybe the secular society is drowning out the call of the priesthood.

The young men, and women, I know are afraid of making a commitment to marriage; if they marry, they are reluctant to be parents.

sounds like he would have made an excellent candidate for the **Catholic **priesthood. I see another St. John Vianney here.

There is a shortage of priests. There is also a shortage of strong marriages, a much bigger problem for the Church, and society in general. The original post is the weakest argument I have ever seen for allowing more married priests, so I hope some posters present some of the stronger arguments, which do exist.

I am undecided about married priests, other than the few exceptions who are a wonderful gift. A few decades ago I was all for married priests, because at that time the state of marriage was only beginning to feel disintegration. Today marriage in secular society and among Catholic is in horrible condition.

Many Catholics are just living together, without wedding; half the marriages end; many others are under extreme challenge. Many Catholic parents are raising their grandchildren, as their adult children are in throes of drugs or other problems.
In our local Episcopal diocese the divorce rate among clergy has rapidly risen.

It takes a critical mass of solid marriages to make up a strong parish, Catholic school, or diocese. We are losing **that **battle.

Well stated. We have 5 Deacons in our parish, btw.
They ordaining them left and right around here.

 

[Gorgias]

Looks like we’ve got a seminary rector in the conversation.

LOL!

No… just someone with enough friends who have gone to a variety of seminaries, and knows that seminaries are not, in general, ‘cesspools’.

 

[Thom18]

Even if men arent responding to God’s call because they don’t want to be celibate (I actually believe God gives the grace to do that, but if some resist the grace) - that to me doesn’t mean that priests shouldn’t be celibate. Why would we change a good rule of the Church because of how some men are maybe not responding to God’s grace?

Great answer. If the bar “needs” to be lowered for men to make it, that reflects very poorly both on the men and the priesthood in general.

“Yeah, he’s a priest, but he wouldn’t be if he wasn’t allowed to get married first”

 

[Actaeon]

i have heard it argued that the lack of deacons proves that celibacy is not a reason for our shortage in priests.

the argument goes something like this: we have a shortage of deacons, but deacons are allowed to be married, so therefore, our shortage in clergy is not due to celibacy, because if it were, then we would not have the shortage in deacons who are not bound to celibacy.

the problem with this argument is it fails to realize that being a priest and being a deacon are two VERY different things.

a priest is THE MAN. he gets all the glory. he is the servant of God, the one who gets to administer the Sacraments. he is the leader of the entire parish community.

a deacon on the other hand, not so much. he may get to read the gospel and preach a homily every now and then, but this is not necessary. the priest can do these things and usually does.

why does this matter? well, lets ask a few questions:

is the reason for our shortage in clergy because God is not calling men, or because men are not responding to God’s call?

surely, the reason is not because God is not calling men, but because men are not responding.

now, why arent men responding? i know several young men in their 20’s who have told me directly that they would love to be priests, but they just do not want to forfeit the pleasure of marriage. and i know another young man who just became a Catholic this past spring, immediately felt a call of God on his life to become a priest, but then when he considered celibacy, he not only rejected the calling to become a priest, but he decided he would just twist God’s calling on his life, return to protestantism, and become a pastor instead of a priest, so that way he could “follow God’s calling” to be a pastor, and yet still be able to get married.

so it is very, very clear, at least to me and anyone else who knows young men, that there are MANY, MANY, MANY young men who would jump at the opportunity to become priests if they were not required to forfeit the pleasures of marriage to do so.

now, the one who argues that the shortage in deacons is a refutation of this point, might say: well, if that is true, then why dont all these young men just become deacons then?

heres the thing: deacons get no glory. they dont administer the Sacraments. they arent THAT GUY who gets to serve God and represent for the people. and if a man is already married and has kids and is working a full-time job, why would he want to go to school for 4 years while working and raising a family in order to take a position in the church that is often times completely unnecessary ?

the attraction to the married diaconate absolutely pales in comparison, almost infinitely so, to the attraction of the married priesthood. and if we were to allow it, it is my opinion that this would definitely help solve the shortage in priests.

the problem is not the God isnt calling young men, the problem is that so many young men, due to their desire for marriage, are invincibly ignorant to the priestly calling. they would never even consider being a priest because of their desire to be married, and so when God calls, they dont listen. and those who do hear his call may consider it for a while, but considering their options, they would rather be married and have kids than be a priest. after all, theyll still get the Sacraments and the rosary in this life either way.

First, a person who discerns that they want to be a priest rather than a deacon because of glory and attention is under a false sense of discernment. These people do not need to be part of the priesthood.

Second, a father in a family is a minister to his children (not of the sacraments, but insofar as teaching the faith yes). If a person is called to marriage, then they are called to have children and to minister to them.

Third, ALL callings, marriage and holy orders, include both the grace and the cross associated with each. The reason celibacy seems so hard is because it is a very visible cross. The reason marriage seems so “pleasurable” is because people forget that it bears the cross of sacrifice for children, and they choose to contracept away the burdens of marriage (much like a priest secretly having affairs with women is attempting to capitalize on grace and dodge his cross).

Fourth, the priestly shortage has little to do with celibacy and more to do with the problem of modern marriage. You see, all those of us contracepting away our sacrificial duty to have children and raise them in the faith are now having very few sons… sons who are critical to genetic survival and passing down the family name to future generations. What parents of only one son are going to encourage that son to join the priesthood? So sure, some people may legitimately feel God’s call to the priesthood, but also feel immense pressure from their family and society to reject that call in order to ensure that their family survives.

You want to fix the priesthood shortage? We as parishoners have to fix our views of marriage and success in life first to have the children God wants us to and to encourage more of those children into the life religious. The priestly shortage is a problem sourced from the laity, and not a problem of the nature of the priesthood itself.

 

[Nap66]

Napp, if this helps, here is what I’ve found for religious orders taking late vocations:
Check with each individual convent to make sure of their age restrictions, but at least it’s a starting point.

Thank you for this information. It is really helpful.

 

[reggieM]

First, a person who discerns that they want to be a priest rather than a deacon because of glory and attention is under a false sense of discernment. These people do not need to be part of the priesthood.

Second, a father in a family is a minister to his children (not of the sacraments, but insofar as teaching the faith yes). If a person is called to marriage, then they are called to have children and to minister to them.

Third, ALL callings, marriage and holy orders, include both the grace and the cross associated with each. The reason celibacy seems so hard is because it is a very visible cross. The reason marriage seems so “pleasurable” is because people forget that it bears the cross of sacrifice for children, and they choose to contracept away the burdens of marriage (much like a priest secretly having affairs with women is attempting to capitalize on grace and dodge his cross).

Fourth, the priestly shortage has little to do with celibacy and more to do with the problem of modern marriage. You see, all those of us contracepting away our sacrificial duty to have children and raise them in the faith are now having very few sons… sons who are critical to genetic survival and passing down the family name to future generations. What parents of only one son are going to encourage that son to join the priesthood? So sure, some people may legitimately feel God’s call to the priesthood, but also feel immense pressure from their family and society to reject that call in order to ensure that their family survives.

You want to fix the priesthood shortage? We as parishoners have to fix our views of marriage and success in life first to have the children God wants us to and to encourage more of those children into the life religious. The priestly shortage is a problem sourced from the laity, and not a problem of the nature of the priesthood itself.

Great post - thank you.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

ok I have heard a few of your objections…

(1) “men who want the glory of being a Priest are not fit to be Priests.” well, guess what - the Sacraments are in no way connected with the worthiness of the Priest. Do you want the Sacraments or not? then stop complaining about the quality of the Priest. because it is entirely irrelevant.

(2) “God gives grace to those He calls.” true, but so what? men are rejecting that grace. but they would not if they were allowed to marry.

(3) “mainline protestant and orthodox also have a shortage, and they allow married Priests.” the problem with those denominations is that they are outright heretical. mainline protestants pretend to be traditional but they have fake priests and fake sacraments (less Baptism), and people who know whats up know that if you want “High Church” you want the RCC, period.

(4) “a Priest cant be 100% devoted to his family and 100% devoted to the Church.” is this because the Priest must work a job and cannot stay at home all day with his family? really? and do not regular lay people also have to work a job? so tell me, out of all the married lay husbands out there, which of them does not have to work a job? and which of them are able to give 100% to their family? but a Priest has more than enough time to say celebrate daily mass, say daily prayers, prepare homilies, etc., in the regular 9 hour workday. and if the wife and children are allowed to live at the parish then this would actually result in a Priest who is both with his family more than the usual lay married husband and a Priest who is at the parish available for lay people more often than the usual Priest.

how many more objections do yall have?

 

[James248]

I’m trying to find a way to say this nicely,

You’ve missed the mark.

 

[e_c]

ok I have heard a few of your objections…

(1) “men who want the glory of being a Priest are not fit to be Priests.” well, guess what - the Sacraments are in no way connected with the worthiness of the Priest. Do you want the Sacraments or not? then stop complaining about the quality of the Priest. because it is entirely irrelevant.

(2) “God gives grace to those He calls.” true, but so what? men are rejecting that grace. but they would not if they were allowed to marry.

(3) “mainline protestant and orthodox also have a shortage, and they allow married Priests.” the problem with those denominations is that they are outright heretical. mainline protestants pretend to be traditional but they have fake priests and fake sacraments (less Baptism), and people who know whats up know that if you want “High Church” you want the RCC, period.

(4) “a Priest cant be 100% devoted to his family and 100% devoted to the Church.” is this because the Priest must work a job and cannot stay at home all day with his family? really? and do not regular lay people also have to work a job? so tell me, out of all the married lay husbands out there, which of them does not have to work a job? and which of them are able to give 100% to their family? but a Priest has more than enough time to say celebrate daily mass, say daily prayers, prepare homilies, etc., in the regular 9 hour workday. and if the wife and children are allowed to live at the parish then this would actually result in a Priest who is both with his family more than the usual lay married husband and a Priest who is at the parish available for lay people more often than the usual Priest.

how many more objections do yall have?

You sound like you are picking a fight, on a topic you almost definitely have literally zero influence over.

I’ll give you a response to each point, and then I will reiterate my objections, which you neglected.

1. The sacraments are valid - but if the preaching (if they bother to preach on hard subjects at all out of fear of losing reputation!) is out of character with the way of life, people are deterred. There may be plenty of sacraments, but fewer people approaching. Have you ever met a priest who is ladder climbing or totally obsessed with “glory”? It is awful. And Joe Pewsitter might be so put off that he will not return - or he will be swooned into a Prosperity Gospel mindset, because Father Glory will preach about nothing challenging so as to keep his “good reputation” - like Aaron.
2. They would indeed still reject the grace of celibacy. And the Church would suffer because of it.
3. Okay - but if it is really so easy, then it should be no problem for them. (The Protestant issue probably has more to do with the lack of necessity for numbers - you don’t need a professional preacher in emergencies - you do need a priest… etc. But the Orthodox, not a good argument that you’ve made.)
4. Here, the ignorance comes into play. You simply don’t know what you are saying. I know a fine priest in the Ordinariate with about a dozen kids - it’s very hard (and expensive for all!). I was once assigned to a parish with a widower priest - he said his work would be totally impossible with family life. And no, it’s not just “being home with the kids,” it’s the availability for meetings in the evening, for night calls to the hospital, for good fraternity within the presbyterate, time for private prayer and study, REST, etc. Surely, the anecdotes could be multiplied, but the “economic” concerns are the bottom of the rung anyway.

What about the eschatalogical witness which would be lost by abandoning celibacy? This moral defeat would be enormous for the Church - “We got them!” the world would say. And nobody would care about priests as much, would they. They would not be as special… (And thus, numbers would not soar as high as you might think - it would indeed appear to be “just a job”!)

What about the harm done to the good which the charism provides for the individual, namely, closer union with God? This is the primary good of celibacy, and it is enormously helpful for the priest, whose business it is to speak to God, about God, and for God.

 

[Gorgias]

(2) “God gives grace to those He calls.” true, but so what? men are rejecting that grace. but they would not if they were allowed to marry.

That doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying, “hey, folks reject grace when they sin, but they would not [be rejecting grace] if they were allowed to sin.”

but a Priest has more than enough time to say celebrate daily mass, say daily prayers, prepare homilies, etc., in the regular 9 hour workday.

You don’t know any priests personally, do you? Priests don’t work a “regular 9 hour workday”. In the evenings, they meet with groups that help lead the parish (finance council, etc); they meet with couples preparing for marriage; they meet with various parish organizations (Christian Mothers, etc); they take emergency calls for anointings; if there’s a school affiliated with the parish, they participate in school activities (e.g., sports, etc). They also work on weekends – in addition to weekend Masses, they hear confessions (usually Saturday); walk through CCD classes; talk with parishioners who come to see them (because they’re already at church for Mass); baptize children; etc, etc.

The “nine-hour workday” – especially if you’re talking about a five-day-a-week job – doesn’t apply to priests.

and if the wife and children are allowed to live at the parish then this would actually result in a Priest who is both with his family more than the usual lay married husband and a Priest who is at the parish available for lay people more often than the usual Priest.

Not sure how “working from home” implies “more time with family”, if the priest is actually working during that time…