Tis_Bearself
Patron
Actually I think you’re stronger than me to have found Jesus on your own coming out of a thicket of atheists. Keep on truckin’.
- Status
S
Sarcelle
Guest
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement.
Last edited:
A
adgloriam
Guest
You shouldn’t let that bother you. The sign of peace -or “Peace of Christ” as we call it- is one of my favorite parts in mass. Why? Because many times during my life -both childhood and adulthood- I’d spend the day alone (or in a hostile enviorment), and that is the one human contact I would get during the day - and there couldn’t be a purer simpler context. (even when I know everybody in the parish, we might not greet otherwise and it makes us closer. I’ve made friends, and struck up conversation later, thanks to the sign of peace).
Also, several times in my life, I sported a long beard, long hair, didn’t really care for how I was dressed, and might come across as odd to some. So I know that occasional feeling you mention of “treated with suspicion”.
But never mind others judgemental, because so many times that was outweighed by the strangers that with a full heart and without reservation gave a sign of peace in a simple, direct, unreserved and immediate, Christlike gesture of charity that clearly did entail all it should.
And when I do get treated as “suspicious” I’m reminded of the poor sitting outside the church begging alms, and should he decide to join mass, he would be no less than me, and whoever treats either as suspicious is wrong in doing so - rest assured in that certainty, and with confidence carry the others weakness for what it is.
Last edited:
A
adgloriam
Guest
Hey @Rozellelily I’ve known @Francis for some time now and I can understand and appreciate his stance.
I like his strict scriptural approach, at the outset. But, as we come across so many beautiful human beings in our lives that grew up in faiths diverse of our own, we come to appreciate the Holy Spirit moves where He wills and is not limited by/to followers of one single religion.
And the hallmark sign we should look for, is sanctity. For sanctity is indeed the sign and fruit of the Holy Spirit working in a person. And I have met so many lovely persons that not being religious had indeed indwelling the Holy Spirit and the sanctity that comes from Him.
[@Francis do be careful in quoting prophet Jeremiah out of context, because your last quote was also a threat. And I do not think it applies, not even by a long shot, to the case at hand.
What could be taken from prophet Jeremiah is that he was completely alone, and even being a prophet loneliness made the prophet suffer to extreme degree.]
I like his strict scriptural approach, at the outset. But, as we come across so many beautiful human beings in our lives that grew up in faiths diverse of our own, we come to appreciate the Holy Spirit moves where He wills and is not limited by/to followers of one single religion.
And the hallmark sign we should look for, is sanctity. For sanctity is indeed the sign and fruit of the Holy Spirit working in a person. And I have met so many lovely persons that not being religious had indeed indwelling the Holy Spirit and the sanctity that comes from Him.
[@Francis do be careful in quoting prophet Jeremiah out of context, because your last quote was also a threat. And I do not think it applies, not even by a long shot, to the case at hand.
What could be taken from prophet Jeremiah is that he was completely alone, and even being a prophet loneliness made the prophet suffer to extreme degree.]
F
Francis
Guest
@Rozellelily
Thanks be to God, Lk17:9,10 Thanks to you @adgloriam sorry i mean no offence, i mentioned as Jesus would weep in quoting Jeremiah
Deuteronomy 4: 6 You must observe them diligently, for this will show your wisdom and discernment to the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and discerning people!” 7 For what other great nation has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is whenever we call to him? 8 And what other great nation has statutes and ordinances as just as this entire law that I am setting before you today? 32 For ask now about former ages, long before your own, ever since the day that God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of heaven to the other: has anything so great as this ever happened or has its like ever been heard of? 33 Has any people ever heard the voice of a god speaking out of a fire, as you have heard, and lived? 34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by terrifying displays of power, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? 35 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. 36 From heaven he made you hear his voice to discipline you.9 But take care and watch yourselves closely, so as neither to forget the things that your eyes have seen nor to let them slip from your mind all the days of your life; make them known to your children and your children’s children
Thanks be to God, Lk17:9,10 Thanks to you @adgloriam sorry i mean no offence, i mentioned as Jesus would weep in quoting Jeremiah
Because God has given it as the first commandment,this sin has consequences till the 4 generation(they can still be saved through purgatory depends upon God’s mercy) and its grievous because,God loves us so much (John 3:16 “For God so loved the world (put your Name here)that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.)and save our souls for our greater good,as no other god has done it ,its a holy jealousy as said in James 4:5 Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”?
Deuteronomy 4: 6 You must observe them diligently, for this will show your wisdom and discernment to the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and discerning people!” 7 For what other great nation has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is whenever we call to him? 8 And what other great nation has statutes and ordinances as just as this entire law that I am setting before you today? 32 For ask now about former ages, long before your own, ever since the day that God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of heaven to the other: has anything so great as this ever happened or has its like ever been heard of? 33 Has any people ever heard the voice of a god speaking out of a fire, as you have heard, and lived? 34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by terrifying displays of power, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? 35 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. 36 From heaven he made you hear his voice to discipline you.9 But take care and watch yourselves closely, so as neither to forget the things that your eyes have seen nor to let them slip from your mind all the days of your life; make them known to your children and your children’s children
Last edited:
F
Francis
Guest
@Rozellelily
Jesus is a gentleman will not interfere in your decision or or your mind’s choices, Revelation 3:20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 See, this alone I found, that God made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes.
God says in Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;7 let the wicked forsake their way,and the unrighteous their thoughts;let them return to the Lord, that he may have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.10 For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,and do not return there until they have watered the earth,making it bring forth and sprout,giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
It’s your free will as said in Sirach 15:15If you choose, you can keep the commandments,and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.16 He has placed before you fire and water;stretch out your hand for whichever you choose17 Before each person are life and death, and whichever one chooses will be given.18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;19 his eyes are on those who fear him,and he knows every human action.20 He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,and he has not given anyone permission to sin.
Jesus is a gentleman will not interfere in your decision or or your mind’s choices, Revelation 3:20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 See, this alone I found, that God made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes.
God says in Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;7 let the wicked forsake their way,and the unrighteous their thoughts;let them return to the Lord, that he may have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.10 For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,and do not return there until they have watered the earth,making it bring forth and sprout,giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
Last edited:
D
Daisy
Guest
To OP
Think of all of those brave men and women who came to new lands, alone, telling people about the Goods News. Perhaps it would help if you saw yourself as a saint on a mission, an evangelist.
I’m sorry you are feeling lonely. But God has a big plan with you, one you aren’t able to see. You are out of your element, but you are the salt of the earth, that bit of yeast, very small and quiet, and very powerful. Continue to live your faith. Also, I don’t see why it’s wrong to develop friendships with the Persian women in your area? They won’t respect your beliefs?
Think of all of those brave men and women who came to new lands, alone, telling people about the Goods News. Perhaps it would help if you saw yourself as a saint on a mission, an evangelist.
I’m sorry you are feeling lonely. But God has a big plan with you, one you aren’t able to see. You are out of your element, but you are the salt of the earth, that bit of yeast, very small and quiet, and very powerful. Continue to live your faith. Also, I don’t see why it’s wrong to develop friendships with the Persian women in your area? They won’t respect your beliefs?
Last edited:
A
adgloriam
Guest
Your quote of Lk 17:9 is the reminder of humility to the servant. The problem is, every person is at his/her own point in conversion and faith - Jesus walks with us, besides us, at our own pace. Thus, that quote is not strict and may not apply under certain circumstances. Our Lord prefers mercy over sacrifice, a sweet word is needed, more times than not.
R
Rozellelily
Guest
Wouldn’t this refer more though to Catholic Christians who were already 100 % believe without doubt that Jesus and Christianity is the truth?
For the OP’s case,as far as I’m aware,she is of Persian background or part background living in Germany so because religion and cultural identity (and even social life) being so interconnected, and Persians being predominantly Muslim + also German society becoming less interested in Christianity/religion (as far as I’m aware) it’s natural that she would feel conflicted.
As posters mentioned,perhaps God had purposely chosen her for this ‘role’/life position but I don’t know whether her ‘purpose’ is to affect people directly or indirectly.
What I meant by indirectly is the reality that,and I don’t if it’s different in Germany,most people will stay the religion of their parents and culture.
For example I am Bosnian background and catholic but there are also Bosnians who are Muslim and it’s very rare that a catholic would become a Muslim or vice versa.
In some Culture and religion can be really intertwined so I think perhaps for Muslim for example maybe God work with the person ‘where they are’ because,after all He did choose them to be born into that family etc?
@alice24
are there perhaps some Persian women that are not so religious that you can make friends with?
Can you be involved in your cultural events like music,dancing and eating but not the religious parts or do you feel unwelcomed?
Also,it might be of little consolation but in my view,having a cultural bound to a religion while sometimes good can even sometimes be a bad thing because,ironically,sometimes those people get so caught up in that and actually become less ‘spiritually’ Christian if that makes sense.
For example I know some Cros and Serbs that get their identity so caught up in being a Croatian catholic or Serbian orthodox and that’s their identity but they don’t always live Jesus/Christianity out because they might fight or hate instead of following Jesus true teachings.
Perhaps a person who doesn’t have a cultural religious bound may sometimes be more sincere in their faulty/beliefs because they are forced to decide for themselves?
For the OP’s case,as far as I’m aware,she is of Persian background or part background living in Germany so because religion and cultural identity (and even social life) being so interconnected, and Persians being predominantly Muslim + also German society becoming less interested in Christianity/religion (as far as I’m aware) it’s natural that she would feel conflicted.
As posters mentioned,perhaps God had purposely chosen her for this ‘role’/life position but I don’t know whether her ‘purpose’ is to affect people directly or indirectly.
What I meant by indirectly is the reality that,and I don’t if it’s different in Germany,most people will stay the religion of their parents and culture.
For example I am Bosnian background and catholic but there are also Bosnians who are Muslim and it’s very rare that a catholic would become a Muslim or vice versa.
In some Culture and religion can be really intertwined so I think perhaps for Muslim for example maybe God work with the person ‘where they are’ because,after all He did choose them to be born into that family etc?
@alice24
are there perhaps some Persian women that are not so religious that you can make friends with?
Can you be involved in your cultural events like music,dancing and eating but not the religious parts or do you feel unwelcomed?
Also,it might be of little consolation but in my view,having a cultural bound to a religion while sometimes good can even sometimes be a bad thing because,ironically,sometimes those people get so caught up in that and actually become less ‘spiritually’ Christian if that makes sense.
For example I know some Cros and Serbs that get their identity so caught up in being a Croatian catholic or Serbian orthodox and that’s their identity but they don’t always live Jesus/Christianity out because they might fight or hate instead of following Jesus true teachings.
Perhaps a person who doesn’t have a cultural religious bound may sometimes be more sincere in their faulty/beliefs because they are forced to decide for themselves?
Last edited:
F
Francis
Guest
No, the OP said she is a Baptiste Christian,and again no, because there are Catholic who fall way and come back ,their are Catholic who are comprised, due to willful,neglects, there are those who don’t really bother about religion, anymore,that said, we too are not 100% Catholic by practice,right? we fall into many sins and still struggle with it, each day, because of humans frailty, Jesus understands that and he is patience with us till the end ,we only have to try, our best and leave all things in his hands, provided we do not, willfully go astray even after knowing the truth, which will be grievous sin, but still God shows us mercy, even till our last breath, he would help us ,but alas we have to bear the consequence our of sins even though our sins are forgiven .We don’t experiment, with other religions after we know the Truth right! as said in Luke 12:8 “And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; 9 but whoever denies me before others will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 16:10 “Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.2 Timothy 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.1 Corinthians 15:19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Last edited:
M
MiserereMei25
Guest
Faith is not a feeling. If so judged my relationship with God based on feeling I must not have a strong faith then, because I do not always feel anything.
Sometimes faith is just a simple act of love toward God. I love my wife, but that doesn’t always mean I have lovey dovey feelings. Yet I kiss her each day and tell her I love her.
Sometimes faith is just a simple act of love toward God. I love my wife, but that doesn’t always mean I have lovey dovey feelings. Yet I kiss her each day and tell her I love her.
A
adgloriam
Guest
Since you bring it up @MiserereMei25 (and I have been thinking what the right answer here is for a few days now)
Faith is: “belief in revealed truth.” Here “revealed” meaning truth revealed in Holy Scripture and through the tradition held by the church.
Feelings are: “passions moving the human heart”. On this the catechism is extremely minimalist (probably for good reason.)
@Tis_Bearself this is actually one of the most difficult posts I have come across on CAF. Because it touches upon the faith of a person who’s pilgrimage in life and faith is very different, particular, (and noteworthy) from that of cradle catholics.
It is possible, indeed, that through study and contemplation of the various religions we are taken search for truth - and to find truth where truth, indeed, is. (Such is the case with the countless scholars of almost every religion that convert to Christianity and Catholicism after a long study, because there they found the truth.)
Now, that does not dispense with Grace (Gnade). In that the person throughout her study and contemplation, her conversion, was being touched and called by the Holy Spirit. That during the conversion, a part of their knowledge and understanding was attained through use of their own reason, and another part of their understanding was given to them by indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by a motion of grace in their soul.
Then, that person, having been moved, moved in their reason, moved in their heart, and moved in their soul by a motion of Grace (Gnade) may (for a moment) not clearly sparate the different motions of her own reason from the supernatural motions of grace, at contemplating the point they find themselves in.
Or, as seems the case here today, question the sense of it all, of finding themselves at a point where they cooperated with the grace of conversion they received and willful use of their own reason without realizing that particular aspects of their understanding seem contradictory. That they were taken to convert, up to present point -through their own reason and Grace-, without apparently having received indwelling grace and understanding regarding the Divine nature of Trinity itself.
@alice24 I’m really sorry I wasn’t able to see this more clearly before. I am so very sorry. Please forgive me.
Faith is: “belief in revealed truth.” Here “revealed” meaning truth revealed in Holy Scripture and through the tradition held by the church.
Feelings are: “passions moving the human heart”. On this the catechism is extremely minimalist (probably for good reason.)
Reason’s role in faith is that it allows us to attain some “truths” by our own means, to grow closer to the truths of faith. And yes, in using “Reason” our “Will” does play a role, because reason is subject to will.alice24:
No it’s not. It’s a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Pray to get more of it.
@Tis_Bearself this is actually one of the most difficult posts I have come across on CAF. Because it touches upon the faith of a person who’s pilgrimage in life and faith is very different, particular, (and noteworthy) from that of cradle catholics.
It is possible, indeed, that through study and contemplation of the various religions we are taken search for truth - and to find truth where truth, indeed, is. (Such is the case with the countless scholars of almost every religion that convert to Christianity and Catholicism after a long study, because there they found the truth.)
Now, that does not dispense with Grace (Gnade). In that the person throughout her study and contemplation, her conversion, was being touched and called by the Holy Spirit. That during the conversion, a part of their knowledge and understanding was attained through use of their own reason, and another part of their understanding was given to them by indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by a motion of grace in their soul.
Then, that person, having been moved, moved in their reason, moved in their heart, and moved in their soul by a motion of Grace (Gnade) may (for a moment) not clearly sparate the different motions of her own reason from the supernatural motions of grace, at contemplating the point they find themselves in.
Or, as seems the case here today, question the sense of it all, of finding themselves at a point where they cooperated with the grace of conversion they received and willful use of their own reason without realizing that particular aspects of their understanding seem contradictory. That they were taken to convert, up to present point -through their own reason and Grace-, without apparently having received indwelling grace and understanding regarding the Divine nature of Trinity itself.
@alice24 I’m really sorry I wasn’t able to see this more clearly before. I am so very sorry. Please forgive me.
A
adgloriam
Guest
An “act of faith” is also an “act of the will”.alice24:
No it’s not. It’s a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Pray to get more of it.
As a keen public intellectual like our good friend @adamhovey1988 is quick to realize
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
S
Servant31
Guest
So true but you always have one here. And I also recommend Catholic radio. It’s also nice because tg3 hosts are usually well informed and able to give complete answers which get closer to the whole truth.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Actually, when mrsdizzyd responded, I thought of the “I Want to Believe” from that series right away
The best you can do is make a commitment to be open to belief. Unfortunately I have seen people right here on this forum who want very much to believe and they just can’t get there. It would be wrong to tell them, “Well, you just haven’t made up your mind to believe and that’s why you don’t” or “You don’t want to believe badly enough, or you would.” It’s putting the blame back on them for a challenge that God has given them and not given to those of us who do have faith. I generally just pray for them instead.
I cannot logically explain why I have always had strong faith. One would expect me to question stuff a lot more. It’s not like I didn’t question all kinds of earthly things, such as authority, throughout my life, or try to find out the root causes why people act a certain way, etc. I got a good education which, while it didn’t involve philosophy (as I tend to find that boring), involved a great deal of logical thought and science. I’m familiar with all the reasons non-believers give as to why people allegedly create God (or gods) and religions for themselves. I even left the Church for a long time and committed all kinds of sins. Throughout all of that, my faith never wavered, except one time for 3 days over one teaching that had me scared this was the beginning of me losing my faith. By the end of 3 days I was right back to faith and trusting in God.
My conclusion is, this is a gift, and it’s like rolling up a character in a role-playing game - some people get a level 10 of faith and some people get a level 2 of faith and level 10 of something else. God gives each person their own special basket of challenges to overcome. I’m level 10 faith but probably about level 3 for charity, and lacking in other things as well.
We need to be careful of blaming people for not having faith when they are making an earnest effort to have it.
We also need to realize that God gives gifts and He can take them away. I could wake up tomorrow with a crisis of faith. I would hope that it doesn’t happen and would do everything I could to keep it from happening, but if God wanted me to experience that, He would zap me with it, as a learning experience.
The best you can do is make a commitment to be open to belief. Unfortunately I have seen people right here on this forum who want very much to believe and they just can’t get there. It would be wrong to tell them, “Well, you just haven’t made up your mind to believe and that’s why you don’t” or “You don’t want to believe badly enough, or you would.” It’s putting the blame back on them for a challenge that God has given them and not given to those of us who do have faith. I generally just pray for them instead.
I cannot logically explain why I have always had strong faith. One would expect me to question stuff a lot more. It’s not like I didn’t question all kinds of earthly things, such as authority, throughout my life, or try to find out the root causes why people act a certain way, etc. I got a good education which, while it didn’t involve philosophy (as I tend to find that boring), involved a great deal of logical thought and science. I’m familiar with all the reasons non-believers give as to why people allegedly create God (or gods) and religions for themselves. I even left the Church for a long time and committed all kinds of sins. Throughout all of that, my faith never wavered, except one time for 3 days over one teaching that had me scared this was the beginning of me losing my faith. By the end of 3 days I was right back to faith and trusting in God.
My conclusion is, this is a gift, and it’s like rolling up a character in a role-playing game - some people get a level 10 of faith and some people get a level 2 of faith and level 10 of something else. God gives each person their own special basket of challenges to overcome. I’m level 10 faith but probably about level 3 for charity, and lacking in other things as well.
We need to be careful of blaming people for not having faith when they are making an earnest effort to have it.
We also need to realize that God gives gifts and He can take them away. I could wake up tomorrow with a crisis of faith. I would hope that it doesn’t happen and would do everything I could to keep it from happening, but if God wanted me to experience that, He would zap me with it, as a learning experience.
Last edited:
A
adgloriam
Guest
I personally rate you at level 9 charity Bear
but I’m definitely not yet giving you 10 on faith 
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
But that is not the Bear I met and have come to know.
Looking again at the definition, faith is:“belief in revealed truth”. You can believe the Trinity while rejecting other aspects of the faith as revealed truth (believing God whilst rejecting the saints or angels or the miracle at the at the Marriage at Cana, for example.) Thus the exercise of the faculty of reason should be convergent towards faith, convergent towards truth.
As in the case of the OP, since we can remember we were at mass listening to the readings and thus engaged in Lectio Divina, meditating and contemplating on revealed truth with every step of our understanding. But even before we can remember or had any understanding, we were presented in the temple in our mothers arms. And laid through mass held tight against her bosom.
The question here is of conversion, but also of theology of grace and of mystical theology. And these are held to be pinnacles of theology, the crown jewels and queen disciplines within the field.
- Status