Lack of knowledge???

[mercygate]

Matthew7vrs7:

Who do you judge me by, the Pope? He is but a man - does he have authority over me? Is not the greatest on earth the least in Heaven?

The Pope “is but a man.” Has anyone claimed otherwise? Despite your protestation that Peter is a foundation stone of Christ’s Church, you seem not to have a clear idea of how the Church understands how her authority relates to Scripture, to the Holy Spirit, or to Our Lord’s plan for salvation.

Matthew7vrs7:

. . . . Does God only speak in Greek and Latin?

Huh? where did *that *come from?

Matthew7vrs7:

Who’s understanding is right, the Popes over mine.

Assuming you are not joking, are you asking me to pick one – you or the Pope? I would ask: A*ny *Pope? The teaching authority of the Church? Or Benedict XVI? Realistically, based on what you have written here? Perhaps you would like to rethink that question.

Matthew7vrs7:

. . . As for Why I Believe - 1 because the Lord said that the Bible was His Word, and I believe in Him, and 2 and just as importantly; I have wittnessed God at work in my life - haven’t you noticed His work in yours? 3 I continue to see His Miracles as affirmation and confirmation - don’t you?

I am a greater skeptic than you. I find it hard to accept “the Bible” on its own witness – partly since the word “Bible” doesn’t appear in the Bible, and if there are passages in the scriptures saying that “this is the inspired word of God,” (I can think of only one, where John claims inspiration in Revelation) that doesn’t prove anything. The Book cannot be its own exclusive witness. I am not saying that there is no internal evidence in support of divine origin. But if the Bible alone were my only source of knowledge, I could not hold it to be the word of God. My personal spiritual experience would not be much of a testament either. Maybe you can help me by explaining where “the Lord said that the Bible was His Word.”

Matthew7vrs7:

As for man or God I mean though I do believe in what the apostle and prophets have said, I trust the Spirit who lives in me to discern good and evil - or what is from God. Do you not use discernment?

Discernment is critical. But you say you believe in what the apostle (Paul?) and prophets have said. Do you? How do the apostle and prophets relate to “the Spirit who lives in you?” You leave me to read between your words, and I’m not doing well. Do you mean: The spirit within you tells you the apostle and prophets are true? Or the apostle and prophets tell you the spirit within you is true? Bear with me; I’m a slow learner.

Matthew7vrs7:

Please do not answer me with links and heresay- answer me with your own authority.

Ah. Now there is where I cannot oblige. Nor can any Catholic with half a brain. I would not pretend to answer you with my own authority. I have none. Anybody who would hold to his own authority would claim the authority of a fool. Any “authority” I might claim derives from being one with the Church, who has “the mind of Christ,” and has applied herself in love for 2000 years to the preservation and understanding of the Word of God. Not just the book: the entire Word of God. The only discernment I do is to discern whether the spirit within me is leading me in conformity with the Body of Christ.

Please do not propose that I should abandon myself to a relationship with a Book of ink and paper.

You ask us not to rely on “hearsay” when responding to you. But your own acceptance of the Bible as the Word of God seems to be based on little else. Moreover, since you challenge the authority of the Church that *gave *you that Bible, that leaves you with your own understanding. Great, if it works for you. I need more corroboration than that. And I have it by receiving Scripture in the context of the Church that authorizes it.

 

[mark_a]

fellicia:

. . . . . he has asked to come to my church on sunday

That’s a milestone for you. Nice job!!

 

[mercygate]

Matthew7vrs7:

I must admit that it is more my assumption rather that any course study or learned knowledge, that the Catholic faith’s origin comes from Cephas, Petra, or Peter, the Rock, and Jesus’ explaining “on this rock I will build My church.” If this is correct I would have to then ask why Peter is the only apostle Jesus wanted to spread the gospel. What made him more able, more trustworthy? Was he the only one Jesus wanted to promote His Church. Did no one else have the divine authority to do so. Why or why not.

Aaaarrgh. (Sorry.) Look at it this way: the Church is built on the foundation of the Apostles – all of 'em. Where do you get the idea that “Peter is the only apostle Jesus wanted to spread the Gospel?” That is absolutely *not *Catholic teaching.

What made Peter more able or trustworthy? Nothing. Clearly, he screwed up enough for us to know that he wasn’t chosen because he was either able or trustworthy.

Your question, “Was he the only one Jesus wanted to promote His Church?” again betrays what you admit (to your credit) is an assumption rather than knowledge.

Think of the Petrine primacy as the sign of unity in the Church (“that they all might be one”). And think of apostolic authority as being shared among all of the Apostles and those who serve after them in Apostolic Succession, and who are in communion either with Peter (during his lifetime) or with the See of Peter after his death.

On another train of thought…

Did God choose the Pope or did men vote on it?

There you go again with that word: Or. Or? Why is it “or?”

Does not Vicar come from the latin meaning “in place of” or th same as vicarious?

Yes.

Do you pray to or in the name of the Pope?Are you serious. Really. Are you serious? Because if you are sincerely asking this, we have to step back about 2000 years in our dialog to connect the dots for you. This is the kind of question we get from people who are merely contentious. I am not saying that you are contentious, but our “discernment” has been somewhat jaded by experience.

Is it because I am merely a mortal man that I cannot interpret the scriptures - if so…who can? Jesus hasn’t returned yet. If I do not know or understand the law (because it was devine and by your reasoning I do not have the ability to understand what God meant), how then can I be judged by it? And, yet again, what good is bapsism if you aren’t saved through it. Isn’t it a regeneration of the Christian IN CHRIST so that we be made hiers to the Kingdom.

I would love to walk through some of these points with you, but the way you throw out six different issues here makes it difficult. Can you pick one thing at a time – maybe post it on a thread of its own?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.

. . .and your point is . . . ?

. . . . Where is my lack of wisdom?

I would not accuse you of lack of wisdom; but you do seem to lack a certain quantity of data which would help you to understand why the Church says what she does. Have you gone to the CA home page and looked at the tracts which might answer some of your questions? That can be very helpful. www.catholic.com

. . . I do tell you you are wrong, but you do not cease to tell me I am wrong, that I cannot know of my own salvation even though Christ says, “you will know all men by their fruits”. Do you show fruit in your life? Are you furthering the Kindgom on earth or are you hindering it by your assumption that your traditions and cerimonies make you more worthy of understanding. Truth is Truth, but some men hate the Light because in the darkness they hide their sins.

Again: a string of unrelated questions and challenges. Let me see if I understand you: You believe in eternal security. You believe the Church is about traditions and ceremonies. Well, you believe in ceremony too! You believe in baptismal regeneration, if I understand your earlier posts. Do you have even a remote idea of what the Church means by tradition?

Engage with me here. I’m on your side.

 

[Church_Militant]

Matthew7vrs7:

I do not “have a problem” with the Catholic faith and I do not challenge your faith, I only want to know why you condemn mine after all the name of this thread is “Lack of knowledge”. Are we not both Christians? Haven’t we asked Jesus into our hearts to save us from our sins? I would however challenge you to disprove what I have said if you truly believe I have no understanding,

I don’t recall condemning your faith…quite the contrary. We are discussiing our personal experiences with people whom we have encountered either here on this forum, others, or in our personal lives. I am simply pointing out that I have found that most have gotten bad 2nd hand info about Catholicism, and accepted it without checking it out until they run into one of us.

As for whatever else you wish to discuss…(and at this point I’m not 100% sure just exactly what it is you wish to get into with us here because you have mentioned several different things).

Let me suggest that you back up, pick a topic that you wish to know about Catholic teaching on and then open a new thread on it and I’m sure you’ll get all the responses that you can handle and then some.

One thing…if you have no problem with the Catholic faith, then I have 2 questions for you.

1. Why aren’t you Catholic? and,
2. Why do you feel that you have something to debate with us?

Some things that you need to remeber if you wish to debate with us…

Focus on one thing. Whatever it is …The Pope, which can be broken down into several aspects that need treatment seperately anyway, like authority, infallibility, succession, impeccability, good looks, hot wardrobe, or whatever.

Another might be the Bible itself, and again there are several aspects that need individual discusssion, such as whether it is the only source for the Christian deposit of faith, its canon, whether we read it or not, and what translations we really like.

Salvation and whether works are important to it, is baptism necessary for salvation and does it matter how it’s done, and just exactly what does baptism do anyway?

These are just some examples off the top of my head, so please feel free to pick one that you think we have a big difference with you about (or you,us or whatever) and open the thread and let’s rock, but so far as this thread is concerned, the topic is that we have found that a great many of the non-Catholics that we meet do not really know what we believe and so when they talk with us about it we get some pretty wild and sometimes vitriolic allegations. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad because they are so serious about it all.

Does this clear things up for ya a little bit? I hope so.
Pax tecum,

 

[Matthew7vrs7]

We are not accomplishing a thing here now are we?
It is my observation that my non-Catholic status doesn’t concern anyone enough to engage me on an interpersonal level. It would be well worth it to everyone who has any point of view to read the entire thread and then ask themselves if they are guilty of ignoring the Great Commission. Were I a nonbeliever, you would have run me off long ago with the"throw them under the bus" and “dogpile” mentality. And still no one will answer me with sound advice to my issues regarding my “not understanding your faith”. You will be first to examine mine and tell me I don’t understand my own, which is not correct, but lets say I did not. Where is the attempt to bring lost souls to Christ. where is the “uderstanding” and “compassion” you are to feel for the “lost” as you see me. what may seem to be ramblings comes from an attempt to answer several people at once who do not answer questions with anthing that is concrete. Teach me if you want me to know; what you say I do not understand, is that not your responsibility as a Christian. Am i not responsible for those who are lost, if I do not try to reach them.

I have not once claimed to understand your faith. I have some ideas no matter how right or wrong, but the debate always seems to laps into, the protestant is wrong, doesn’t understand how the church was started, cannot know of his own salvation, claims to know about our faith anf doesn’t even know their own faith. What should i think of your faith - that is a question not an attack. Tell me WHERE I am wrongand why. If I were a nonbeliever in Christ would you still be giving into the assailing that has become the theme of this thread.

I have asked specifically, where am I wrong, and you answer me with doctrine that is alien to me, memorized latin words, thoeries I have never heard of before. Are you not responsible for my soul? Do not trust me to go read some article or search the information out for myself, make me understand why your faith is true and mine is not using common sense and scripture. If scripture cannot be relied on then why can anyone believe. These are serious questions. Evidently everyone here knows my beliefs as well or better than I do (at least that seems to what is claimed) so MAKE me understand yours - or is my soul not important?

I am not the enemy, I am a Chrisitian who believes that Jesus is they Way the Truth and the Life. I have given my life over to Him, asked Him for Salvation, and feel His presence in me and see Him at work in my life. I love you all as my brothers and sisters so once again I am beggin you - honestly and seriously - explain to me where I am wrong about my faith and yours.

You wouldn’t tell somone threatening to jump to their death to figure it out for themselves would you. Come out on the ledge and talk to me about why I should come back in - please.

I have to make this my last post for the night but I hope you will take the time and effort to save me from the mistakes you assume I am making - don’t trust me to climb back in the window all by myself - tell me why I want to live.

God bless you all, no matter who is right or wrong, we are on the same team. Please pray for me as I will for you. Goodnight.

 

[mercygate]

Matthew7vrs7:

We are not accomplishing a thing here now are we?
It is my observation that my non-Catholic status doesn’t concern anyone enough to engage me on an interpersonal level. . . .

I am not the enemy, I am a Chrisitian who believes that Jesus is they Way the Truth and the Life. I have given my life over to Him, asked Him for Salvation, and feel His presence in me and see Him at work in my life. I love you all as my brothers and sisters so once again I am beggin you - honestly and seriously - explain to me where I am wrong about my faith and yours.

You wouldn’t tell somone threatening to jump to their death to figure it out for themselves would you. Come out on the ledge and talk to me about why I should come back in - please.

I have to make this my last post for the night but I hope you will take the time and effort to save me from the mistakes you assume I am making - don’t trust me to climb back in the window all by myself - tell me why I want to live.

God bless you all, no matter who is right or wrong, we are on the same team. Please pray for me as I will for you. Goodnight.

Point taken, Matthew.

Let’s make this a two-way event. Help us out by taking one thing at a time. I’m a little perplexed by your reference to “under the bus” and “dogpile” mentality. I hope you don’t mean ME!

One point at a time. You say we answer you with ‘doctrine that is alien, memorized Latin words, and theories you have never heard of.’ OK, that’s THREE things; so let’s take the first one.

1. What doctrine is alien to you?

BTW, asking you to look at some of the tract length descriptions on the main page is not a way of distancing you from interpersonal engagement, though it may seem so. Those little articles are clear, concise, well-thought-out, and accurate. Many of them go right to the points that you raise – better than we can. They will help you focus your questions in a way that will guide us towards answering you more personally.

You are not “lost.” You are seeking. You are among friends.

 

[Orionthehunter]

This willingness to submit to the Bible yet not submit to the Church via the Magisterium and Pope that gave you the Bible is the crux of the argument that Mercy is rhetorically addressing. This is why she (and I) refuse to cite ourselves as an “authority.” Any authority we might have is based on authority given to us via the Church’s Teaching, Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. If I assert “authority” outside this authority of the Church’s Teaching, Tradition and Sacred Scripture, I am committing a heresy. And since the consequences of heresy is eternal death, neither Mercy or I are willing to go there.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Matthew7vrs7:

I must admit that it is more my assumption rather that any course study or learned knowledge, that the Catholic faith’s origin comes from Cephas, Petra, or Peter, the Rock, and Jesus’ explaining “on this rock I will build My church.” If this is correct I would have to then ask why Peter is the only apostle Jesus wanted to spread the gospel. What made him more able, more trustworthy? Was he the only one Jesus wanted to promote His Church. Did no one else have the divine authority to do so. Why or why not.

On another train of thought…

Did God choose the Pope or did men vote on it? Does not Vicar come from the latin meaning “in place of” or th same as vicarious? Do you pray to or in the name of the Pope? Is it because I am merely a mortal man that I cannot interpret the scriptures - if so…who can? Jesus hasn’t returned yet. If I do not know or understand the law (because it was devine and by your reasoning I do not have the ability to understand what God meant), how then can I be judged by it? And, yet again, what good is bapsism if you aren’t saved through it. Isn’t it a regeneration of the Christian IN CHRIST so that we be made hiers to the Kingdom.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.

Are you saying I cannot understand that I must Walk to Walk, I don’t know that I must be firm and resloute in my belief in the Salvation that is Christ Jesus. and that I don’t understand that I must have faith that what He said was the Truth, the Word of God and be humble as a child?

Where is my lack of wisdom? Why does someone else understand what I don’t if we are all imperfect humans. Where exactly is the logic in this reasoning?

Jim1130
Who’s way or the highway? Who is not trying to understand whom? Is not the Light the Light. Can the Truth not be felt in your heart. Are we so pathetic that we don’t feel the Word of God etched on our very souls. And it is not my way or the highway,
it’s His was or Damnation. I do tell you you are wrong, but you do not cease to tell me I am wrong, that I cannot know of my own salvation even though Christ says, “you will know all men by their fruits”. Do you show fruit in your life? Are you furthering the Kindgom on earth or are you hindering it by your assumption that your traditions and cerimonies make you more worthy of understanding. Truth is Truth, but some men hate the Light because in the darkness they hide their sins.

Mathew, Mercy is making a lot of good points in that you are trying to address about 300 issues in one post (granted the thread is about “lack of knowledge” ) that are quite difficult. Each issue is its own theology class.

My suggestion is that you prayerfully reflect prayer on the following facts and then create a thread that narrowly addresses your primary obstacle to the Church and/or Church Teaching. It is the obligation of every Catholic to assist the Holy Spirit bring people (whether it be a “cafeteria” Catholic, separated Christian, someone of a different religion, or unchurched) home to the bosom of Christ.

This is a Church that that accepted Peter’s primacy among the Apostles even before Christ’s death, began saying Mass in the upper room prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Masses where they consecrated bread and wine as Jesus taught them and after Pentesost came to understand the Real Presence), went forth to make disciples for Christ, tcorrected and admonished those who taught heresy or false teachings and compiled the inspired Word of God into what is now the Bible.

Note these facts:

Mass was being said and bread and wine consecrated before the writing of the Bible and the Creed.

The Church (subject to the Primacy of Peter or his successors) was excercising its exclusive authority to correct and admonish false teachings before the writing of the Bible and Creed.

The Church (subject to the Successor of Peter as Peter had been crucified) determined which Gospels and Letters were the inspired Word of God and which were not to compile the Bible in its current form in the 4th or 5th century.

Now pray and discern in the context that the Church was “operating” under the Primacy of Peter and his successors, celebrating Mass, and acting as the guardian of the Truth and Teachings (via accepting or rejecting various teachings as orthodox or heresy) for centuries before the Bible was finalized.

 

[Mickey]

Matthew7vrs7:

Do not trust me to go read some article or search the information out for myself, make me understand why your faith is true and mine is not using common sense and scripture.

Your most accurate sources will be , encyclicals, Catechism of CC, Ca articles etc. And yes, these writings are backed up by Scripture. So go ahead, read them for yourself–we trust you!

 

[jim1130]

Mickey:

Your most accurate sources will be , encyclicals, Catechism of CC, Ca articles etc. And yes, these writings are backed up by Scripture. So go ahead, read them for yourself–we trust you!

I have been reading this ongoing dialogue of the many with Matthew7vrs7. I can appreciate Matthew7vrs7 sincerity, but the depth of Catholicism cannot be absorbed by e-mails alone, something that Matthew7vrs7 wants to occur on this site. Anything short of e-mail correspondence is seemingly dismissed. The reason RCIA lasts for nearly a year is so that the Catechumen may arrive into complete communion with what the Catholic Church teaches and believes, all of which derive from Apostolic succession bestowed to the Church by Jesus, a Church that we believe is visible compared to our Protestant brethren who believe the Church to be invisible. Our Catholic beliefs further our commitment, love, and understanding of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Our profession of faith, which we affirm through our Nicene Creed, is the beginning, not the end-all, for acceptance. Via e-mail, we may present to Matthew7vrs7 broad strokes (Jesus changing Simon’s name to Peter and upon whom Jesus will build His Church [much like God changing Abram’s name to Abraham of whom God promised descendents that will be as countless as the stars], the authority delegated to Peter and the Apostles [Peter receives the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven paralleling the authority Isaiah granted when he passed the keys from Shebna to Eliakim {Isaiah. 22:19-22}] of Catholicism, but our broad strokes do not appear sufficient for Matthew7vrs7. Additional information has been presented on this site to encourage and facilitate Matthew7vrs7’s understanding of the Catholic Church, but Matthew7vrs7’s insistence of Sola Scriptura hinders acceptance of what we are trying to teach. I am not sure if anything will come from this dialogue except to reaffirm our own beliefs. Hopefully Matthew7vrs7 will see these beliefs also.

 

[Mickey]

jim1130:

I have been reading this ongoing dialogue of the many with Matthew7vrs7. I can appreciate Matthew7vrs7 sincerity, but the depth of Catholicism cannot be absorbed by e-mails alone, something that Matthew7vrs7 wants to occur on this site. Anything short of e-mail correspondence is seemingly dismissed. The reason RCIA lasts for nearly a year is so that the Catechumen may arrive into complete communion with what the Catholic Church teaches and believes, all of which derive from Apostolic succession bestowed to the Church by Jesus, a Church that we believe is visible compared to our Protestant brethren who believe the Church to be invisible. Our Catholic beliefs further our commitment, love, and understanding of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Our profession of faith, which we affirm through our Nicene Creed, is the beginning, not the end-all, for acceptance. Via e-mail, we may present to Matthew7vrs7 broad strokes (Jesus changing Simon’s name to Peter and upon whom Jesus will build His Church [much like God changing Abram’s name to Abraham of whom God promised descendents that will be as countless as the stars], the authority delegated to Peter and the Apostles [Peter receives the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven paralleling the authority Isaiah granted when he passed the keys from Shebna to Eliakim {Isaiah. 22:19-22}] of Catholicism, but our broad strokes do not appear sufficient for Matthew7vrs7. Additional information has been presented on this site to encourage and facilitate Matthew7vrs7’s understanding of the Catholic Church, but Matthew7vrs7’s insistence of Sola Scriptura hinders acceptance of what we are trying to teach. I am not sure if anything will come from this dialogue except to reaffirm our own beliefs. Hopefully Matthew7vrs7 will see these beliefs also.

Yes. And to re-affirm our own beliefs is a good thing.
What many protestants don’t understand is that the teaching and Tradition of the Catholic Church is so deep–and the history and witness is so rich–that even the most learned theologian would not be able to cover it all in a lifetime! I feel so blessed to have these sources available to us. Sacred Scripture is the inerrant divinely inspired Word of God, and Sacred Tradition interprets it for us. What an immense blessing!

Peace,
Mickey