Lack of Mary in the Bible

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Treacy17 said:
But not even a comment in passing? In any letter?
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Sorry, I don’t understand where you were going with this comment and don’t want to respond until I understand what you are getting at. Can you clarify what you mean by this?
 
The Epistles are works of Apostles who went into the world preaching/spreading the good news. Mary had a different kind of work in Ephesus at the time. She likely was an example of the contemplative/prayer life, including Stations of the Cross prayer/meditation.
 
I mean that if Mary is so important, why do none of the letters praise her even as an aside?
 
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Mary probably has less than 1000 words about her in all of scripture. Yet one Mid-Western Catholic University claims to have over 10.000 volumes devoted to her. I’d call that real inflation of facts. Most of what I read about Mary on this forum sounds like an attempt by the writers to create a persona by a lot of pious sounding wishful thinking. The theological assumption is that for Mary to be the mother of the son of God, she simply must have all the following attributes…(fill in here every pious sounding word you can find in the dictionary)
 
OP: Actually, there is an old book by Fr. Livius, Mary in the Epistles, about implicit Marian references in Paul and the Apostles. Your friend will probably not like it…

clarkgamble1:

There is a new academic book out that talks a lot about Marian readings of Scripture and their place in Western civilization. It is called Mary and the Art of Prayer, by Rachel Fulton Brown. It started as a medievalist’s book about the astonishing medieval popularity of the Little Office of the Virgin Mary, and branched into explaining Marian spirituality in general. In the process, the author converted to Catholicism!

It does have some problems (anything about Hebrew culture from Margaret Barker,because Barker has good info but bad interpretation ofthe evidence), but it definitely gives an interesting perspective on Marian topics for folks who didn’t learn devotion at their mother’s knee.

If you were a Jewish poster, I have no doubt that you would not like the standard Christian way of reading the Scriptures, such that they are allllllll about Jesus in every book. You would not want us to read the Psalms as being prayed for us by the Son of David, even if you were okay with reading some Psalms as being connected to a future messianic Son of David. Not that Jesus guy, though.

Just as early Christianity latched onto reading the Psalms as being “about” Jesus and spoken from His PoV, and just as both Jewish and Christian sources have always been comfy reading the Psalms as one’s own prayer, not just the prayer of a bunch of Levites singing at the Temple, so you also see Christians from very early times reading the Psalms as the prayer of the personified Church, as the prayer of various saints one likes, and as the prayer of the Daughter of David, Mary.

If you want to read the Bible as talking about the whole plan of salvation, then of course you can read the OT as referring to Jesus, or Mary, or all sorts of other things – including oneself, because each of us is also part of God’s eternal Plan and Providence.

If everything is random, then sure, the Bible is just some book. But if God had you in mind, and me, in providing us with passages that help, then why is it weird to think that He would also include His other friends or His mom? What, God put passages in the OT to tell the Apostles what to do about Judas’ treachery, and He didn’t have anything to say about the woman whom He entrusted with His Body’s care?

And why would it be weird for people to take an interest?
 
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I am Protestant so take my answer with a grain of salt. Mary is very important. We should honor and venerate Mary as the Mother of God, a faithful saint who was blessed by God with a responsibility and honor that we will hold in reverence wherever the gospel is preached about Christ. That being said, I would agree with your sentiment that many of the doctrines that have cropped up since the apostolic age are neither apostolic in origin and some would arguably say actually contradict the gospel message. The main concerns that I have regarding the recent innovations of Marian doctrine is that they elevate her to almost a semi-divine status, and in doing so actually diminish the humanity of Christ. Additionally, we see these doctrines are not kept in check and are continuing to grow to the point where some would argue that now Mary should be elevated to the level of redeemer along with Christ. I think if Mary could see how proper veneration of her role in the gospel has been inflated to the level that it is today, she would cringe. From that respect, you are correct in your criticism. If the Marian doctrines as they have developed are central to the faith to the point where they have been affirmed as de fide doctrines, there should be some evidence of them in the New Testament documents. So I would agree with you there that their absence is a problem. Keep in mind this doesn’t apply to all of the Marian dogmas, just the more recent innovations.
 
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Why are you only responding to Hodos?
 
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I engaged her with a direct question to understand what she was asking.
 
Yes, you are right Scriptures had it wrong; the Virgin is nothing but a commoner who deserves nothing but disdain from the spirituals like yourself.

May the Holy Spirit continue to be your stepping stone!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
“If the Trinity is so important, why is it barely mentioned in the Bible?”

“If Peter is so important, why is he barely mentioned in the Bible?”

“If Adam and Eve are so important, why are they barely mentioned in the Bible?”

So many things we believe aren’t even IN the Bible directly (the word Trinity, the exact compilation of what CONSTITUTES the Bible).

That said, Mary is ALL OVER Scripture, and if someone asked this of me I would presume they didn’t know Scripture very well and would encourage them to study more.
 
Treacy17 said:
If Mary is so important, why does she not get any mentions at all in the Epistles?
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Seeing that the Epistles were written as Pastoral letters addressing problems in the early Church I would think the fact that she isn’t mentioned in these letters of correction tells us way more than your protestant friend is willing to admit.

This exact controversy only comes from people who tend to read the Bible as an instruction manual. If that is the way your friend wants to read the Bible then he just opened up a whole can of worms and problems for what he believes.

God Bless
 
Hodos said:
The main concerns that I have regarding the recent innovations of Marian doctrine is that they elevate her to almost a semi-divine status, and in doing so actually diminish the humanity of Christ
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Recent innovations? So, the Dogmas of the Trinity and Our Lord’s hypostatic Union were recent innovations to fourth and fifth century Christians?

Also, any grace, blessedness, and glory Our Lady has is due to the merits of her Son’s Paschal Mystery. The Mother of God, being immaculately conceived and assumed into Heaven magnifies and exalts the humanity of Christ.
 
Hodos said:
there should be some evidence of them in the New Testament documents.
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There is evidence! However, 16th century eyes will not see these implicit revelations. And, why does there need to be evidence in the New Testament writings?
 
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Hodos said:
in doing so actually diminish the humanity of Christ
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How does anything taught about Mary diminish the humanity of Christ? Could you give an example?
Hodos said:
Mary should be elevated to the level of redeemer along with Christ.
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The word CO-redeemer means along with, not equal to. Aren’t we all called to be workers (co-redeemers)
with Christ?
Hodos said:
there should be some evidence of them in the New Testament documents.
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Here’s a great video that shows where in the New Testament documents many of the teachings on Mary comes from.


Hope this helps,

God Bless
 
MT1926 said:
The word CO-redeemer means along with, not equal to. Aren’t we all called to be workers (co-redeemers)
with Christ?
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Exactly! And this in no way diminishes the reality that Christ is still the One Mediator. It’s not as if Christ is co-redeemer and Mary is co-redeemer thereby making one redeemer among the two. No, co-redemption is a sharing and collaboration with the One Redeemer, hence the term. And, given Mary’s unique and necessary role in the plan of redemption, she is rightfully called The Co-Redeemer!
 
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Hodos said:
I think if Mary could see how proper veneration of her role in the gospel has been inflated to the level that it is today, she would cringe.
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Mary is aware of what is happening. She continues to play a huge role in our lives, whether we realize/acknowledge it or not. Check out the many apparitions and messages from Mary. She never cringes at her role or her titles but just the opposite, she has made requests to be given such titles. She is being obedient to God. Read about her as our Lady of Fatima or our Lady of Guadalupe. Two very fascinating and important apparitions.

It is we humans who refuse to acknowledge her role in our salvation.
 
Actually, I would say that the Lady of Fatima apparitions are textbook examples of what I was talking about. The instructions provided by that entity are outright idolatrous.
 
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