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Thing
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But He cannot be Good and Evil at the same time, nor Evil at all, for that matter. He cannot create a person for hell, though He can, because He is Good, create a person for Heaven.
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paul_c
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2nd_Adam
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I think that is the predominate contemporary Catholic view as well as the contemporary Arminian Protestant view. However, I do not believe these two views can stand up to all of Scripture revelation. Mankind’s rebellion is grounded in his desire to be autonomous from God, and hates that God can do whatever pleases Him (Rom 9). I believe the Catholic view and Arminina Protestant view are simply hangovers from our previous enmity and our sinful desire to be autonomous from God. As fallen creatures, we want to control our own fate and destiny.
You cannot gloss over the doctrines of election, chosen, saints set apart for God, the will of God, the sovereignty of God, and predestination with a blanket theory of man’s free will being greater than God’s sovereign will. I think Augustinian Catholics hold to a more biblical position than non Augustinian Catholics. Let’s kill the Pelagius old man in us together as siblings in Christ to the praise of His glorious sufficient grace.
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paul_c
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Scriptural revelation says that we will be judged based on our actions (Matthew 25: 31-46, Luke 10, Matthew 19: 6-19, etc.). This is incompatible with a view that nothing we does matters. God is sophisticated enough in his plan to allow for us to have free will and still have his plan work out. And yes, God can do whatever he wants. In Catholic theology, he wants us to come to him willingly.I think that is the predominate contemporary Catholic view as well as the contemporary Arminian Protestant view. However, I do not believe these two views can stand up to all of Scripture revelation. Mankind’s rebellion is grounded in his desire to be autonomous from God, and hates that God can do whatever pleases Him (Rom 9). I believe the Catholic view and Arminina Protestant view are simply hangovers from our previous enmity and our sinful desire to be autonomous from God. As fallen creatures, we want to control our own fate and destiny.
You cannot gloss over the doctrines of election, chosen, saints set apart for God, the will of God, the sovereignty of God, and predestination with a blanket theory of man’s free will being greater than God’s sovereign will. I think Augustinian Catholics hold to a more biblical position than non Augustinian Catholics. Let’s kill the Pelagius old man in us together as siblings in Christ to the praise of His glorious sufficient grace.
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2nd_Adam
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Okay, we know that all mankind will give an account to God. Now, do you see a difference between those who are in Adam and those who are in Christ? So, is your eternal destiny based on the perfect righteousness of Christ alone as being sufficient for you, or do you believe that your obedience will be the determining factor of being in Heaven? Protestants agree with being saved onto good works and the process of being made into the image of Christ. However our basis for our standing before God today, and the rest of eterniity is the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone which is our righteousness received throug faith. The Catholic Faith is always on the edge of a works righteousness Gospel - IMO. How do yo see God, as your eternal Heavenly Father… and do you have assurance that you are an eternal adopted son of God based on what our elder brother has done for us? Or, do you see yourself to be in an unknown status until you physcially die?
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paul_c
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Well, we Catholics believe that Christ opened the doors of heaven for us but that we still need to walk through those doors. He will not drag us through them against our will out of love and respect for us as individuals. To walk through those doors, we need to trust in Jesus but we must also do his will and follow in his way. Lip service is not sufficient.
And yes, since we are not the judges, we will wait for Jesus to judge us and not presume that we are saved simply because we claim allegiance to Christ. It takes more than that.
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Dancelittleewok
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Why would God want the saved to give to account for his works aren’t by his own free will?
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2nd_Adam
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Grace upon grace… God is crowning his work in us… which Paul’s writings clearly teach this.
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crazzeto
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Where does Paul teach that God is fake judging us having already predestined us to heaven or hell for his own glory. I need a scripture passage for that. I’ve produced a ton and a half of scripture which you always ignore to prove my pionts to date.
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2nd_Adam
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I
izoid
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Mankinds rebellion is grounded in his pride, not i his “desire to be autonomous from God”. You see, it was not until the serpent told Eve that she would be like God that she actually ate of the fruit. It was pride. Pride was also Satan’s downfall.I think that is the predominate contemporary Catholic view as well as the contemporary Arminian Protestant view. However, I do not believe these two views can stand up to all of Scripture revelation. Mankind’s rebellion is grounded in his desire to be autonomous from God, and hates that God can do whatever pleases Him (Rom 9). I believe the Catholic view and Arminina Protestant view are simply hangovers from our previous enmity and our sinful desire to be autonomous from God. As fallen creatures, we want to control our own fate and destiny.
You cannot gloss over the doctrines of election, chosen, saints set apart for God, the will of God, the sovereignty of God, and predestination with a blanket theory of man’s free will being greater than God’s sovereign will. I think Augustinian Catholics hold to a more biblical position than non Augustinian Catholics. Let’s kill the Pelagius old man in us together as siblings in Christ to the praise of His glorious sufficient grace.
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crazzeto
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exactly as worded, I took what Dancelittleewok said and just laid it out there a little more plainly. By suggesting that we are predestined to hell or heaven, personal judgment becomes faux, there’s no point to personal Judgment or judgment of any kind. You were predestined, you were going to heaven or hell anyway, so what’s with the show trial (so to speak)? And where does Paul discuss this plainly as you suggest.
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ryanoneil
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They do not. They accept all the points.
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Dancelittleewok
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And what about personal sins? Does God count those as his work too?
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2nd_Adam
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Predestination and the Catholic Church
by Adam C. Kolasinski
The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).
The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.
But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.
Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:
- Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
- Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
- Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
- Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
- God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.
For more on the Catholic Church and Predestination, this essay by Ludwig Ott has more: Catholic Predestination
catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
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2nd_Adam
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Our pride is related to being autonomous from God. See Romans 1.
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2nd_Adam
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Sure, since our personal sins are paid for at the cross for those who believe. The atonement for the sins of the elect is defintely a work of God.
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Dancelittleewok
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No, my question wasn’t in with the Cross but personal judgment. As believers, people commit personal sin…does God take credit for that sin if we have no free will?
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paul_c
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This only applies to sin prior to baptism or sacramentally removed by confession.
Hebrews10 is clear that those who have faith can sin and will lose their eternal life if they do:
16 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?
30 We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember the days past when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a great contest of suffering.
33 At times you were publicly exposed to abuse and affliction; at other times you associated yourselves with those so treated.
34 You even joined in the sufferings of those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you had a better and lasting possession.
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence; it will have great recompense.
36 You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.
37 “For, after just a brief moment, 17 he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay.
38 But my just one shall live by faith, and if he draws back I take no pleasure in him.”
39 We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Boy, you guys like those apostate Scriptures like Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10.
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