Lack of understanding that spritual things do happen

[DihydrogenOxide]

I’m making this post out of frustration with some other threads.

Many people since the dawn of “scientific thought”, and really mostly since the 50s and 60s, seem to disregard the possibility that you can “see, hear, or feel” the existence of souls/demons/angels, etc.

This is really frustrating to me, because I’ve felt this first hand.

It’s like the protestant/secular view of “there are no such thing as ghosts” that they tell little kids has spread to catholicism.

Any comments/ideas as to why?

I get the feeling that it has to do with priests and religious instructors just plain not talking about that.

 

[Michaela1]

I think many Catholics are afraid of “new-age” kind of thinking, false prophets, or pagan influence coming into Catholicism and distorting God’s teachings. They are trying to protect against anything that could subvert the Catholic order. Therefore, there is a knee-jerk reaction to personal testimony about unusual spiritual experiences not known to most of the faithful. You have only to look to St. Teresa of Jesus (St. Teresa of Avila) to see how one can be made to suffer because of their legitimate spiritual visions and ecstasies not granted to others. Also, the Catholic Church, of course, must protect itself from imposters who might falsely claim such experiences simply to gain attention.

 

[Marie5890]

I do hear what you are saying and it’s valid.

But I also understand the flip side of this issue because as medical science has developed we have come to understand the relation of hallucinations to medical conditions. Im running into this in our family. My beloved step-father has early stage dementia/Alzheimers and he has hallucinations, including seeing people who arent there. Drugs, and not necessarily illegal ones, can also create such experiences

I do believe in demons and spiritual beings and that people have experiences with them.
I also know various medical conditions and mental illness have as their symptoms hallucinations and delusions.

The challenge is to figure out what is a real spiritual experience, and when one is the symptom of a medical condition.

 

[edwest2]

First of all, there is a trend in the secular media to discredit, distort or actively speak against what the Church teaches in specific areas. Scientifically, you can’t put God or demons in a lab to examine them. It also doesn’t help when people see movies like the Exorcist and do not look into what the Church actually teaches about exorcism.

I recommend the following:

amazon.com/Rite-Making-Modern-Exorcist/dp/0385522703

amazon.com/Interview-Exorcist-Jose-Antonio-Fortea/dp/1932645969/ref=pd_sim_b_2

Another problem is that some actively promote the idea that God and demons do not actually act in history today. If there were no demons today then their would be no need for exorcists, and exorcists do need God today to carry out an exorcism.

Peace,
Ed

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

You have only to look to St. Teresa of Jesus (St. Teresa of Avila) to see how one can be made to suffer because of their legitimate spiritual visions and ecstasies not granted to others. Also, the Catholic Church, of course, must protect itself from imposters who might falsely claim such experiences simply to gain attention.

True, such as St. Joanne of Arc, St.Bernadette, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Elizabeth of Sweden, St. Benedict, St. Bernard, etc.
But, not so much only because

The challenge is to figure out what is a real spiritual experience, and when one is the symptom of a medical condition.

True. There have been saints and holy people as well, thought, that have been categorized with “crazies, delusional”, and as far as psychology goes, that’s a whole other topic that can be debated, ie. multiple personality disorder/demonic possession.

First of all, there is a trend in the secular media to discredit, distort or actively speak against what the Church teaches in specific areas.

Another problem is that some actively promote the idea that God and demons do not actually act in history today.

Thanks Ed. I have had first hand experiences with exorcist priests, so I know where those sources are going. I’ve also worked a long time for the pro-life cause, and abortion clinics are terrible for feeling and seeing activity. (I don’t really want to experience that, it’s just right there and you can’t avoid it.)

I totally agree with your second point. The devil wants to take the Truth of the matter out of everything.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m making this post out of frustration with some other threads.

Many people since the dawn of “scientific thought”, and really mostly since the 50s and 60s, seem to disregard the possibility that you can “see, hear, or feel” the existence of souls/demons/angels, etc.

This is really frustrating to me, because I’ve felt this first hand.

It’s like the protestant/secular view of “there are no such thing as ghosts” that they tell little kids has spread to catholicism.

Any comments/ideas as to why?

I get the feeling that it has to do with priests and religious instructors just plain not talking about that.

It may be a secular thing, but I’d hardly call it a “Protestant” thing. All you have to do is turn on the TV any Sunday morning and see the preachers busily expelling demons, etc. Go to any Christian bookstore and just see how much there is written about the supernatural and demonic, mostly from the Pentecostal and Fundamentalist camps.

 

[OraLabora]

I do hear what you are saying and it’s valid.

But I also understand the flip side of this issue because as medical science has developed we have come to understand the relation of hallucinations to medical conditions. Im running into this in our family. My beloved step-father has early stage dementia/Alzheimers and he has hallucinations, including seeing people who arent there. Drugs, and not necessarily illegal ones, can also create such experiences

I do believe in demons and spiritual beings and that people have experiences with them.
I also know various medical conditions and mental illness have as their symptoms hallucinations and delusions.

The challenge is to figure out what is a real spiritual experience, and when one is the symptom of a medical condition.

That’s more or less what I was thinking when I red the title of the thread. The brain is a complex and mysterious organ. Just as we shouldn’t deny spiritual experiences, we also shouldn’t be too quick to ascribe paranormal experiences to spiritual causes.

To a certain extent these experiences lie in the realm of private revelation inasmuch as they really are spiritual. Yet if they aren’t truly spiritual but serve to increase the faith of those who experience them, then that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

A good example are near-death experiences and the hallucinations that occur, as the brain is systematically shutting down. Some view the experiences as evidence of an afterlife. I’m rather more skeptical myself, but if those who experience them feel they are evidence of afterlife, then what harm is done by maintaining that belief?

 

[archangel04]

The Church is much careful than before in proclaiming anything supernatural, in fact she has always been cautious when it comes to things like these. Only difference now is that there are much more advance tools to man to better distinguish/understand the difference between natural and supernatural. It’s not too long ago that one could say they experience a “ghost” sighting and could easily be believed. Now with advancements in technology and psychology much of that stuff can be explained as mere intuition, conscious, imbalance of the mind, nature, or just simply an overreacted imagination. Some people just want attention and are just so lonely that they are so in tune to their minds that if they say they saw/felt something than that’s their reality they live in, and no evidence in the world can make them change their mind. I’ve experience some stuff I feel was supernatural, but I don’t go talking about it, in fact this is the first time I’ve really ever mention it, and I am sure most of that stuff could be scientifically explained.

Another thing I notice is what I call “followers of experience”. What I mean by that is that they may belong to a certain group. Member A all of a sudden experiences a “supernatural” event. Now the member B might feel bad because they do the same exact thing person A did but has not experienced that “supernatural” event. So they start to pretend that they too are feeling that experience, which in reality is all in their mind. The problem is that the mind is very powerful. Convince it that the sky is purple and you can be living in a world where the sky is purple.

 

[archangel04]

Even though my explanation above me seems to be harsh to those who feel they have experience the supernatural let me say that demons, angels, and spirits are very much real. I have to agree with the poster who stated about abortion clinincs. Walk up to any abortion clinic and you can really feel an evil entitiy in or around the enironement. It can make you sick, no joke! Demons can hurt you physically if you open a passage for them in your body or your environement. This is why the new age, and other spirutalities can be very dangerous.

 

[Marie5890]

Demons can hurt you physically if you open a passage for them in your body or your environement. This is why the new age, and other spirutalities can be very dangerous.

I want to thank you for this. I have an aquaintence, a very nice lady, who is involved in this sort of thing but I never knew to what degree until very recently.
She was visiting me and she was talking to me about her experience with some guy known as “John of God”…Some well-known guy apparently that people throng too.

Well she was going on and on and sharing her experiences with me (I’ve known her well enough where I suspect some form of mental illness for some time. Nothing that make her a threat to herself or others, but it effects her ability to deal with others)

ANYWAY. When she was talking all about this I was getting very uncomfortable and I didnt like the “spirit” I felt that had entered my home. And I am not a supertisious sort of person by a long shot.

I sat there politely and prayed while she was talking. The thought came to me that I did have a small bottle of holy water in the other room that I use it on occasion when I feel the need to renew my baptismal promises after having done an examination of conscience that leaves me feeling deeply contrite.

After she left I sprinkled some of the holy water in the area where we had been sitting and talking.
Now I dont know if a more questionable spirit had entered my home with her or not. But I do know that I was relieved and was more at peace after I used the holy water…

 

[fred_conty]

I’m making this post out of frustration with some other threads.

Many people since the dawn of “scientific thought”, and really mostly since the 50s and 60s, seem to disregard the possibility that you can “see, hear, or feel” the existence of souls/demons/angels, etc.

This is really frustrating to me, because I’ve felt this first hand.

It’s like the protestant/secular view of “there are no such thing as ghosts” that they tell little kids has spread to catholicism.

Any comments/ideas as to why?

I get the feeling that it has to do with priests and religious instructors just plain not talking about that.

They, the clergy, might want to keep it low key in their talks because all sorts of people are listening to them, not just the very average person. Some people just sort of go off on a tangent or get very nervous, yes and even upset, hearing topics like this. So they do not want to be unkind to them that do not tolerate hearing these types of things. Some are much more sensitive. Children too are present and also must be considered.

Just some thoughts.

 

[archangel04]

I want to thank you for this. I have an aquaintence, a very nice lady, who is involved in this sort of thing but I never knew to what degree until very recently.
She was visiting me and she was talking to me about her experience with some guy known as “John of God”…Some well-known guy apparently that people throng too.

Well she was going on and on and sharing her experiences with me (I’ve known her well enough where I suspect some form of mental illness for some time. Nothing that make her a threat to herself or others, but it effects her ability to deal with others)

ANYWAY. When she was talking all about this I was getting very uncomfortable and I didnt like the “spirit” I felt that had entered my home. And I am not a supertisious sort of person by a long shot.

I sat there politely and prayed while she was talking. The thought came to me that I did have a small bottle of holy water in the other room that I use it on occasion when I feel the need to renew my baptismal promises after having done an examination of conscience that leaves me feeling deeply contrite.

After she left I sprinkled some of the holy water in the area where we had been sitting and talking.
Now I dont know if a more questionable spirit had entered my home with her or not. But I do know that I was relieved and was more at peace after I used the holy water…

Nothing wrong with that! Many people don’t realized how important asking God for blessing and protection is. People “negativity” can remain in items or environments. As I always say better safe than sorry.

 

[MtnDwellar]

People tend not to believe that which they haven’t seen. I don’t think it’s a recent trend. Remember Thomas? Thomas saw the miracles of Christ. Jesus told him that he would rise from the dead. The other apostles told him that it happened, yet he didn’t believe until he saw.

People who have had personal experiences will be more likely to believe. Those who have not are more likely to think that you are misinterpreting or imagining things. Your most trusted friends will say things like, “I believe that you believe.”

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

People tend not to believe that which they haven’t seen. I don’t think it’s a recent trend. Remember Thomas? Thomas saw the miracles of Christ. Jesus told him that he would rise from the dead. The other apostles told him that it happened, yet he didn’t believe until he saw.

People who have had personal experiences will be more likely to believe. Those who have not are more likely to think that you are misinterpreting or imagining things. Your most trusted friends will say things like, “I believe that you believe.”

I agree with you totally here.

There will always be those who won’t believe or “refuse to see”. Heck, there are those who refuse to see things right in front of them. How much harder is it to believe what is unseen.

 

[nickybr38]

When I joined the Church last year this was one of the things I struggled with the most.

When I was Protestant and I would have my experiences it was very rare to run into someone who had NOT had experiences of their own. Hard to find someone who wouldn’t believe me and offer their prayers.

However, as I tried to settle into my new faith I discovered that more often then not such experiences as I’ve had all my life were dismissed by the Catholics I spoke to. No longer would people agree to pray, no longer could I approach an elder for advice for how to deal with things because the response was; There must be something wrong with YOU. Clearly you’re imagining things. Probably you’re a little crazy.

Finally I found a priest in a parish nearby who has dealt with people who’ve had experiences like mine and who believes them. He, of course, directed me to St. Theresa (Therese?).

I feel a bit like a freak now in my Catholic faith. Seems like I’m one of the few who experiences things. My understanding of this aspect of my life has been completely upended. I HAVE come to some sort of understanding of what the Church itself actually teaches on this issue but it seems like no matter what the Church teaches the average Catholic will dismiss such things off hand.

It’s hard not being able to talk about my experiences but I understand that I can’t. Thankfully things have quietened down remarkably since my conversion. Phew. So happy I know about my Guardian Angel now. What comfort He gives (I know that sounds stupid because we have GOD but somehow knowing I have a Guardian is an added comfort).

Anyway, sorry for my rambling. It’s just this spiritual side of things seems to be dismissed by the majority of North American Catholics (I have no idea what other Catholics believe as I have no experience with them).

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

However, as I tried to settle into my new faith I discovered that more often then not such experiences as I’ve had all my life were dismissed by the Catholics I spoke to. No longer would people agree to pray, no longer could I approach an elder for advice for how to deal with things because the response was; There must be something wrong with YOU. Clearly you’re imagining things. Probably you’re a little crazy.

Finally I found a priest in a parish nearby who has dealt with people who’ve had experiences like mine and who believes them. He, of course, directed me to St. Theresa (Therese?).

I feel a bit like a freak now in my Catholic faith. Seems like I’m one of the few who experiences things. My understanding of this aspect of my life has been completely upended. I HAVE come to some sort of understanding of what the Church itself actually teaches on this issue but it seems like no matter what the Church teaches the average Catholic will dismiss such things off hand.
So happy I know about my Guardian Angel now. What comfort He gives (I know that sounds stupid because we have GOD but somehow knowing I have a Guardian is an added comfort).
It’s just this spiritual side of things seems to be dismissed by the majority of North American Catholics (I have no idea what other Catholics believe as I have no experience with them).

You aren’t rambling. You did a great job getting your point across. I agree with you.

Yep! St. Theresa de Avila (Therese is de Liseux but not as renowned for that). Also St. Jeanne D’Arc, St. Elizabeth of Hungary, and many other saints had experiences like these.

I had the awkward experiences with pro-life and also priests trained in exorcism to help me feel more sane(no, I was never exercised, I just know them). Some priests were trained with the idea that there is something mentally wrong with people who “see” these appearances, etc. You have to pick and choose who you talk to because of so many doubts. Some people thought I should get carted off to the looney bin, I’m sure.

I guess some could call it a gift, but I’ve seen, heard, and felt these sorts of things on and off since I was a little child. It started, as I remember(because goodness knows it could have been earlier), around the age of 5, when I was visited by a poor soul for a long time.
I just figured many people had this, and I have the sneaking suspicion that more people do than actually say, for fear of being ridiculed.

You have to understand that the “average” “catholic” or person who calls himself catholic in the US, is poorly catechized, if they were catechized at all. Compared to most countries, our country is poor in faith and rich in arrogance.

 

[TrueLight]

I think it’s important to remember too that mystics like St Teresa of Avila and St Faustina struggled with their experiences too. They sometimes thought it was their imagination, and they sometimes thought it was the devil.

One thing they did was submit themselves to spiritual directors and they would share those experiences with them. For the most part, they were blessed with confessors who confirmed that what they were experiencing were from God. But they had some confessors who did not know how to handle their experiences as well.

So pray for good spiritual directors.