Lamb of God substituted with Bread of Life

[ChrisCA]

Today at the Mass at my church, the Lamb of God litany was changed to Bread of Life, just like it is in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IGFu9IqH3r0

Q: Is this permitted?

When I researched the GIRM, I found:

1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, for example, at the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God).

Does this mean it is not permitted to modify the Agnus Dei?

When I e-mailed the Pastor about the Responsorial Psalm being substituted with a song several months ago, it was ignored, but the problem never happened again.

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

So I’m wondering, what I should do in this case.

 

[MissRose73]

My mother’s church has a similar thing during the Agnus Dei which caught me off guard when I had to go to her church for All Saints Day. Keep in mind, she is in a diocese that is pretty liberal. Makes me glad I go more to the TLM more lately compared to the OF where I know there isn’t that kind of improvisation. I hope the priest either insists on a change, if not go up the chain with what you noticed and have read.

 

[1ke]

Today at the Mass at my church, the Lamb of God litany was changed to Bread of Life, just like it is in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IGFu9IqH3r0

Q: Is this permitted?

When I researched the GIRM, I found:

Does this mean it is not permitted to modify the Agnus Dei?

Correct. These are called tropes, and they are not permitted.

However, this is somewhat convoluted subject. The US bishops did issue a document in 2007 allowing it (but this was not approved by the Vatican).

The Congregation for Divine Worship requested the US bishops to stop this practice, and the US bishops complied as of Sept 12, 2012 it is no longer allowed (if it can be said to have ever really been allowed at all).

seattlearchdiocese.org/Assets/Liturgy/3120_USCCB.pdf

I’m sure many have not gotten the message, so I would suggest approaching it carefully, perhaps printing this document and discussing it with your priest.

When I e-mailed the Pastor about the Responsorial Psalm being substituted with a song several months ago, it was ignored, but the problem never happened again.

That is a good thing.

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had,

Next time, politely suggest it is none of their business.

I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

This is (a) not this person’s business and (b) not true. Catholic laity have the right to approach their pastors about their needs.

So I’m wondering, what I should do in this case.

Be polite and share the document linked above. Approach it in a way that is more of a “did you know” than a “hey you are doing this wrong”.

 

[superamazingman]

Today at the Mass at my church, the Lamb of God litany was changed to Bread of Life, just like it is in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IGFu9IqH3r0

Q: Is this permitted?

When I researched the GIRM, I found:

Does this mean it is not permitted to modify the Agnus Dei?

When I e-mailed the Pastor about the Responsorial Psalm being substituted with a song several months ago, it was ignored, but the problem never happened again.

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

So I’m wondering, what I should do in this case.

No, it is not allowed. The USCCB said it was allowed in Sing to the Lord, but the CDW (ie, the vatican) recently came out directly against that part of the USCCB’s document, saying that no, it is not allowed to add external texts to the agnus dei.

 

[ChrisCA]

Thanks for the replies!

Should I talk with the music director or go to the pastor first?

I don’t know why they decided to use a different Lamb of God for today’s Mass, since we have always used the correct words every other time I have gone to Mass here regularly.

Perhaps, if it is sung incorrectly again (like next Sunday), I should bring this matter to attention…

 

[superamazingman]

Thanks for the replies!

Should I talk with the music director or go to the pastor first?

I don’t know why they decided to use a different Lamb of God for today’s Mass, since we have always used the correct words every other time I have gone to Mass here regularly.

Perhaps, if it is sung incorrectly again (like next Sunday), I should bring this matter to attention…

yeah, I would wait at least another week if it’s the first time you’ve heard it.

I would go to the MD, then if he is unwilling to fix it, then go to the pastor.

since it’s the first time it happened, for all we know, the pastor may be having this very same conversation with the pastor as we type!

 

[JGMendes4049]

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

That’s not a run-on sentence, by the way.

 

[ChrisCA]

That’s not a run-on sentence, by the way.

Good to know! I try to use proper grammar, but I figured with all of the commas it was one.

 

[robwar]

Today at the Mass at my church, the Lamb of God litany was changed to Bread of Life, just like it is in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IGFu9IqH3r0

Q: Is this permitted?

When I researched the GIRM, I found:

Does this mean it is not permitted to modify the Agnus Dei?

When I e-mailed the Pastor about the Responsorial Psalm being substituted with a song several months ago, it was ignored, but the problem never happened again.

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

So I’m wondering, what I should do in this case.

It is always best to make an appointment to speak about this with the Pastor as opposed to emailing him. You should not have been approached by someone else on the Pastor’s behalf about your email. The problem with email is that is can too easily be ignored or get into the wrong hands and be misinterpreted.

 

[Richard320]

Not allowed, discussed recently here

 

[Phemie]

yeah, I would wait at least another week if it’s the first time you’ve heard it.

I would go to the MD, then if he is unwilling to fix it, then go to the pastor.

since it’s the first time it happened, for all we know, the pastor may be having this very same conversation with the pastor as we type!

I would never go to the MD with this. I’ve found that they’re usually super defensive and never happy to be informed that they are doing something wrong.

Our MD’s usual response to anything like this is “I’m sure God doesn’t mind,” and that’s as far as it goes. I note that since the new Pastor came the post-Gospel ‘Alleluia’ has stopped. I can only assume that he told them it wasn’t proper because they’d been singing it for at least 10 years and showed no sign of stopping before the new Pastor showed up.

 

[pnewton]

, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

Cardinal Arinze does not agree:

Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

I would say as a matter of prudence that all matters need to be handled at the lowest level, and only if one is capable of acting with both the mind and the attitude of the Church, specifically, humility.

 

[ChrisCA]

I would never go to the MD with this. I’ve found that they’re usually super defensive and never happy to be informed that they are doing something wrong.

Our MD’s usual response to anything like this is “I’m sure God doesn’t mind,” and that’s as far as it goes. I note that since the new Pastor came the post-Gospel ‘Alleluia’ has stopped. I can only assume that he told them it wasn’t proper because they’d been singing it for at least 10 years and showed no sign of stopping before the new Pastor showed up.

Is there something wrong with the post-Gospel “Alleluia”? When I went to Mass every Sunday at the Baltimore Basilica, it was done there. I figured it was something Basilica’s do? But I could be wrong…

 

[superamazingman]

I would never go to the MD with this. I’ve found that they’re usually super defensive and never happy to be informed that they are doing something wrong.

Our MD’s usual response to anything like this is “I’m sure God doesn’t mind,” and that’s as far as it goes. I note that since the new Pastor came the post-Gospel ‘Alleluia’ has stopped. I can only assume that he told them it wasn’t proper because they’d been singing it for at least 10 years and showed no sign of stopping before the new Pastor showed up.

I would at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Go to him once. If he brushes you off, then go, to the pastor.

 

[superamazingman]

Is there something wrong with the post-Gospel “Alleluia”? When I went to Mass every Sunday at the Baltimore Basilica, it was done there. I figured it was something Basilica’s do? But I could be wrong…

It’s just not in the rubrics…that’s all.

 

[ChrisCA]

I would at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Go to him once. If he brushes you off, then go, to the pastor.

True. We have a nice singer (cantor) / pianist who is really on fire for God. I think he would understand if I bring it up with him, although he isn’t the music director…

 

[ChrisCA]

It’s just not in the rubrics…that’s all.

Good to know. I figured they knew what they were doing in Baltimore. But they **once ** did the “Jesus, Lamb of God…” thing so I guess everyone does it wrong sometimes.

 

[mangy_dog]

Today at the Mass at my church, the Lamb of God litany was changed to Bread of Life, just like it is in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IGFu9IqH3r0

Q: Is this permitted?

When I researched the GIRM, I found:

Does this mean it is not permitted to modify the Agnus Dei?

When I e-mailed the Pastor about the Responsorial Psalm being substituted with a song several months ago, it was ignored, but the problem never happened again.

However, I was approached by someone that the Pastor knew and must have told, asking me if I e-mailed the Pastor, and when I told him I had, I was told it was not my place to do so (because they are the “clergy” and I am the “people”), even though what occurred at the Mass that time was inappropriate. (sorry for the run on sentence)

So I’m wondering, what I should do in this case.

You continue to be the watchdog. Brush off the comments by that person and continue to do the right thing.

In our mass, that prayer is in Latin.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecata mundi, dona nobis pacem.

Pretty hard to mess with Tradition.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

The only time any change is allowed in the Agnus Dei is in the Extraordinary Form during a Requiem Mass. The Agnus Dei changes to:

Agnus Dei, qui tollit peccata mundi, dona eis requiem (grant them rest)

All three are sung this way. This is the only exception, and one that is not allowed in the Ordinary Form.

 

[poche]

There you have your answer. That is not permitted.