Lamb of God

  • Thread starter Thread starter aislingdet
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

aislingdet

Guest
Is it liturically correct to use words other than

"Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us

Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us

Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world grant us peace"

In our church we seem to use alternatives such as

Jesus Lamb of God bearer of our pain, Jesus healer, hear our prayer etc
 
yes it is close, lets see if I can type this from memory

Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, miserea re nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, miserea re nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, dona nobis pachem.

this is the latin and agrees with the english translation substantiually, notice there is no Iesus in the latin.

There are optional penitential rites that can replace the “I confess to almight God, and to you…” and the Agnus Dei, these may be what you are thinking about.
 
The correct words, as you pointed out, are:

“Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world grant us peace”

Anything else is not allowed. The words to the ordinary of the Mass are not changeable. They must be done as given by the Church.
 
I heard “Bread of peace” and “Tree of life” used at a Mass I recently attended. No it is not allowed.
The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy. (Redemptionis Sacramentum 59)
 
But for Grace:
yes it is close, lets see if I can type this from memory

Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, miserea re nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, miserea re nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tolus pecata mundi, dona nobis pachem.

this is the latin and agrees with the english translation substantiually, notice there is no Iesus in the latin.

There are optional penitential rites that can replace the “I confess to almight God, and to you…” and the Agnus Dei, these may be what you are thinking about.
Click to expand...
[Latin pedant]
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.
[/Latin pedant]
(though the phonetics of the first is pretty close)

😛
tee
 
I think this is one of the mis translations that the Vatican is in the process of correcting. The Latin:

AGNUS DEI, QUI TOLLIS PECCATA MUNDI MESERERE NOBIS

Translates as

LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD HAVE MERCY ON US

The Latin QUI could NOT be translated as YOU., but as WHO, a subtle yet sIgnificant difference.

Why it would have ben mistranslated in such a fashion I can only speculate.
 
40.png
palmas85:
I think this is one of the mis translations that the Vatican is in the process of correcting. The Latin:

AGNUS DEI, QUI TOLLIS PECCATA MUNDI MESERERE NOBIS

Translates as

LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD HAVE MERCY ON US

The Latin QUI could NOT be translated as YOU., but as WHO, a subtle yet sIgnificant difference.

Why it would have ben mistranslated in such a fashion I can only speculate.
Click to expand...
“Qui”* here functions as a relative pronoun and it is not particularly wrong to translate it as “you”, but it is imprecise.

More precisely, the phrase in question translates as:

LAMB OF GOD, YOU WHO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, HAVE MERCY ON US

(qui may be translated in several ways, depending on context, but there is no mistaking tollis as a second person singular verb)

tee
 
In many “arrangements” of the Agnus Dei, composers often change the words as described. In the “Mass of Creation”, which has been used for decades in our diocese, there are some 12 different verses such as “tree of life”, “prince of peace”, etc. I have seen documents published by the dicoese indicating that all parishes should use this mass setting so that we can have a common repertoire for large group masses, or so that visitors may be familiar with one common tune. I do not know if that is a part of the mass that is changeable or not. someone with a better grasp of which parts are part of the ordinary, and which aren’t would have to answer that.
 
tee_eff_em said:
[Latin pedant]
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.
[/Latin pedant]
(though the phonetics of the first is pretty close)

😛
tee
Click to expand...

Thank you for the correction of the latin
 
Anima Christi:
I heard “Bread of peace” and “Tree of life” used at a Mass I recently attended. No it is not allowed.
The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy. (Redemptionis Sacramentum 59)
Click to expand...
Also see the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, which says this:
GIRM 366:
It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.
Click to expand...
The idea that chants (and other parts of the Order of Mass) can be altered at-will come from a document issued by U.S. Bishops’ Conference sub-committee on the liturgy back in 1982. This document - Liturgical Music Today - was never approved by the full conference of bishops, and never received a recognitio from Rome (which is required for changes in the liturgy). Paragraph 20 of this documents states:
LMT 20:
The Lamb of God achieves greater significance at Masses when a larger sized eucharistic bread is broken for distribution and, when communion is given under both kinds, chalices must be filled. The litany is prolonged to accompany this action of breaking and pouring. In this case, one should not hesitate to add tropes to the litany so that the prayerfulness of the rite may be enriched.
Click to expand...
This is the document that always gets references whenever someone asks about altering the Agnus Dei chant. It’s an unapproved document of the Bishops Committee on Liturgy, and has absolutely no authority whatsoever in regulating changes in the liturgy.

First of all, this isn’t allowed in the GIRM, Order of Mass, or any other approved (official) liturgical document. Tropes are only allowed as an alternative in the Penitential Rite, when the actual Kyrie Eleison is ommitted.

Secondly, anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of music history knows that the ancient tropes used in the liturgy back in the 8-11th centuries don’t even come close to what’s currently described as a “trope.”

There was an extensive article written on this topic in the Adoremus Bulletin. It can be found at:

adoremus.org/1202AgnusDei.html

In Manibus Dei,
  • Mike M.
 
tee_eff_em said:
*
“Qui”* here functions as a relative pronoun and it is not particularly wrong to translate it as “you”, but it is imprecise.

More precisely, the phrase in question translates as:

LAMB OF GOD, YOU WHO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, HAVE MERCY ON US

(qui may be translated in several ways, depending on context, but there is no mistaking tollis as a second person singular verb)

tee
Click to expand...

Not thinking I was that wrong I referred to my old Latin texts and figured the proper literal translation would be

LAMB OF GOD, HE WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD HAVE MERCY ON US

THE TOLLIS WOULD INDICATE THE SECOND PERSON WITHOUT ACTUALLY DEFINING IT AS YOU.
 
40.png
palmas85:
THE TOLLIS WOULD INDICATE THE SECOND PERSON WITHOUT ACTUALLY DEFINING IT AS YOU.
Click to expand...
:confused: Um…who could possibly be the second person except “you”?

But in any case, according to the draft I’ve seen, “who takes away” is indeed being considered for the new translation, as you’d indicated.

tee
 
40.png
palmas85:
Not thinking I was that wrong I referred to my old Latin texts and figured the proper literal translation would be

LAMB OF GOD, HE WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD HAVE MERCY ON US

THE TOLLIS WOULD INDICATE THE SECOND PERSON WITHOUT ACTUALLY DEFINING IT AS YOU.
Click to expand...
Yes, “tollis” is a first person singular verb. If one wanted to say “He who takes away…”, it would be “qui tollit peccata”.
 
Fidei Defensor:
Yes, “tollis” is a first person singular verb. If one wanted to say “He who takes away…”, it would be “qui tollit peccata”.
Click to expand...
Second person, singular, present, indicative, active.

tollo, tollere, sustuli, sublatus – take away, lift up, take up.

*tollo *-- I take away
*tollis *-- you (s) take away
*tollit *-- he/she/it takes away

*tollimus *-- we take away
*tollitis *-- you (pl) take away
*tollunt *-- they take away

tee
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top