Language and Mass

[Pitcairn17]

So, don’t look for any Masses in Pig Latin or Klingon then?

Likely not, but there is a project to translate the Bible into Klingon. I believe the Psalms and Gospel of Mark have already been translated. Look up the Klingon Language Institute. LLAP (which is of course Vulcan in origin)

 

[dochawk]

Likely not, but there is a project to translate the Bible into Klingon.

I think it finished a few years ago.

But not (and I am not making this up) before having a schism.

Seriously.

They bought into a fight about whether to use earth or Clinton animals . .

 

[TomH1]

Is this an official, Vatican approved, translation?

Far too little information to answer this question I’m afraid. A starting point would be knowing to which language you refer and then checking if the Vatican have approved it as a liturgical language.

 

[TomH1]

From my understanding it is the bishops that approve translations, not the Vatican. It should be much easier for the local bishop to find somebody to check the translation than for somebody in the Vatican.

Of course the Vatican can provide guidance on how the approvals should work.

That is not how it works. Bishops’ conferences are responsible for translating the Latin of any editio typica of a liturgical book published by the Holy See. These conferences often delegate the work. For example, there are eleven bishops’ conferences that use the International Commission on English in the Liturgy to do translations for them. However, the bishops have to give their final approval.

When a bishops’ conference has approved a translation it then has to submit it to the Holy See for the Holy See’s approval. It is only when that approval has been given can the bishops’ conference promulgate it and choose a date from which it will come into use.

After Vatican II St. Paul VI issued the first editio typica of the Ordinary Form of Mass. Two more were issued during the pontificate of St. John Paul II: the second and third editions. The English translation of the second edition was never approved by the Holy See and the whole effort collapsed. There never was an English translation of the second edition but there was in other vernacular languages. It is also why we waited so longer for the third edition to be available in English. The English translation was not approved by the Holy See, which then oversaw another translation of it.

A vernacular language cannot be used in the liturgy without the approval of the Holy See. Translations from Latin into any such vernacular languages also require the Holy See’s approval.

 

[InThePew]

A vernacular language cannot be used in the liturgy without the approval of the Holy See. Translations from Latin into any such vernacular languages also require the Holy See’s approval.

The Holy See doesn’t really get too fussed about translation into the more obscure language if for no other reason than it’s simply not possible to scrutinise every translation - it’s not just a lack of linguists it’s also a lack of time. Translations into these languages tend to be done from the English translation of the missal (which is why the Holy See was so particular about that translation) again, partly due to a lack of sufficiently competent translators who can translate from Latin into the language in question. The translation still needs be approved for use in that diocese however.

Also, is it okay if the priest switch from one language ( ex. English to another ) in the mass or is it strictly implied that one language should be used in the mass ?

I do when saying mass in a local language simply because some parts of the missal aren’t translated into the local language.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I think BXVI used the term Vetus Ordo in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (2007).

 

[LateranBasilica]

Holy Father Pope Francis used this term in an extended interview.

 

[TomH1]

The Holy See doesn’t really get too fussed about translation into the more obscure language if for no other reason than it’s simply not possible to scrutinise every translation - it’s not just a lack of linguists it’s also a lack of time. Translations into these languages tend to be done from the English translation of the missal (which is why the Holy See was so particular about that translation) again, partly due to a lack of sufficiently competent translators who can translate from Latin into the language in question. The translation still needs be approved for use in that diocese however.

Could you please provide a source for this. I ask because it goes against what I have been reading for years about translating official texts from the Holy See from Latin to vernacular languages. Thanks

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Could you please provide a source for this. I ask because it goes against what I have been reading for years about translating official texts from the Holy See from Latin to vernacular languages. Thanks

I agree. I would consider it a somewhat absurd situation. Any intermediate langauge is always a potential source of error or misunderstanding. Furthermore, anybody competent enough to translate Mass should be well grounded in Theology and hence know Latin.

That is unless they are farming the work out to students or low cost translation agencies, in which case they get what they pay for.

One of the attracive things about the Liturgy is that it is so beautiful. I really wouldn’t want some kid with Google translate to destroy that, and so deprive entire communities of this uplifting beauty.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Likely not, but there is a project to translate the Bible into Klingon. I believe the Psalms and Gospel of Mark have already been translated. Look up the Klingon Language Institute. LLAP (which is of course Vulcan in origin)

There is also a project underway to translate the Bible into Quenya. I think right now there is only one guy working on it (and I’m not sure how active he actually is), so it will be a while.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

In my parish, we frequently have bi-lingual Masses; usually Spanish and English.

 

[dochawk]

The Holy See doesn’t really get too fussed about translation into the more obscure language if for no other reason than it’s simply not possible to scrutinise every translation

My favorite of these is Fr. Serge Kehler of blessed memory offering the Ukrainian (Catholic) Divine Liturgy in Irish (yes, the was quite insistent on it being Irish and not Gaelic . . ) at his parish/mission in Dublin . . .)

 

[TK421]

Is their any documents from the Vatican which regulate the use of the vernacular language in the Novus Ordo mass ?

Also, is it okay if the priest switch from one language ( ex. English to another ) in the mass or is it strictly implied that one language should be used in the mass ?

Thanks !

Masses can be multilingual in addition to a single vernacular language. Using some Latin within the Ordinary Form is encouraged in the documents of the 2nd Vatican Council because it symbolizes universality (Latin was a tongue that stretched across many Christian nations in the early centuries of the Church). This is why the sung responses are frequently in Latin or occasionally Greek.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I speak next to no Irish, in fact the only reason I know any Irish, is because when I was in college, I had an Irish girl in one of my classes , she had a scholarship to play soccer. But a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in Irish, sign me up!

 

[InThePew]

Could you please provide a source for this. I ask because it goes against what I have been reading for years about translating official texts from the Holy See from Latin to vernacular languages.

Just anecdotal sorry but, it makes sense if you think about it because there simply aren’t the people qualified to translate from Latin to every single language the mass is said in.

Any intermediate langauge is always a potential source of error or misunderstanding. Furthermore, anybody competent enough to translate Mass should be well grounded in Theology and hence know Latin

Which is why the Vatican was so concerned about the English translation of the missal. Knowledge of Latin - especially to the extent necessary for translation isn’t what it once was but also bear in mind that any studies of Latin would have been done in English and not in whatever language was being translated into since students at many seminaries in remote parts of the worlds are multinational (or at least multilingual) and so English is used as the language of instruction.

 

[ProVobis]

English is used as the language of instruction.

Maybe because English is more forgiving in spelling, grammar, pronunciation, etc? Just my guess.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

To answer the OP…

The only document I’m aware of that “regulates” the use of the vernacular in the Mass is Sacrosanctum Concilium itself. And, if memory serves me correctly, it leaves the extent of the use of the vernacular up to the discretion of the local synods of bishops.

That being said, I believe Pope St. Paul VI, in Iubilate Deo, set out a minimum of Latin that was to be maintained (the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei, along with the Kyrie [which, of course, is Greek]).

Is it okay for a priest to switch from one language to another? Absolutely, so long as he is using approved translations. I’ve been to tri-lingual Masses offered in Latin, English, and German. I’ve been to Byzantine Liturgies offered in English, Arabic, and Greek. At my own Maronite parish we have Liturgy in English, Arabic, Syriac, and Greek! It’s pretty amazing.

 

[Bithynian]

Maybe because English is more forgiving in spelling, grammar, pronunciation, etc? Just my guess.

I studied Latin as an undergraduate, and I think English is a lot worse in terms of all those simply because it’s so irregular, having been heavily influenced by three other languages (French, Latin and Greek). Not to mention its working vocabulary is enormous since it’s a contemporary language that evolved through the industrial and digital eras.

But it’s likely used for international instruction because it’s so widely used in commerce, education, politics, etc. It’s the lingua franca of the 21st century, just as Latin was in the 1st century.

the discretion of the local synods of bishops

Yes, the national conferences are delegated quite a lot of authority in terms of approving local liturgical texts translated in the vernacular. There was a somewhat recent news article about the use of a particular Sardinian dialect in the Mass, and a priest was quoted that only the translation of the Eucharistic prayer required approval from the Holy See. But I would hesitate in saying that it is universal across all dioceses.

 

[InThePew]

Maybe because English is more forgiving in spelling, grammar, pronunciation, etc? Just my guess.

Probably more to do with accessibility and familiarity given the spread of the English language.

At any rate, a bit of googling found this from Fr Edward McNamara on Zenit: Translating From the English Missal - ZENIT - English

Basically, he says that while translation are supposed to be prepared from the Latin text of the missal in reality it doesn’t always work like this and tbh Rome isn’t too fussed. In fact the document on translation, Liturgicum Authenticum, provides that translations in languages other than English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese or Spanish sent to Rome for approval are to be prepared in one of these languages, with the meaning of each individual word of the vernacular language provided, and that the President and Secretary of local Bishops Conference are to testify to the authenticity of the translation. So, in other words, Rome is happy to trust the local Bishops when it comes to these translations.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I studied Latin as an undergraduate, and I think English is a lot worse in terms of all those simply because it’s so irregular, having been heavily influenced by three other languages (French, Latin and Greek). Not to mention its working vocabulary is enormous since it’s a contemporary language that evolved through the industrial and digital eras.

Also, because grammar is somewhat lapse, English has much more scope for ambiguity.

And being a living language, the meaning and implication of words can change subtly over time.

The beautiful thing about Latin is that it is both extremely precise but also monolithic and unchangeing.