Last minute sin and conversion

[JamesAquinas]

This has always been a major question for me.

Consider a person who has been righteous and God fearing person all his life, but commits a mortal sin and dies before he can receive communion. Compare this to a person who has been evil all his life but repents on his deathbed.

Our catholic teaching tells us that the first person will go to he’ll while the second will go to heaven. I’ve always been disturbed by this and I found an answer here.

catholic.com/quickquestions/isnt-it-unfair-for-god-to-damn-someone-for-committing-a-last-minute-mortal-sin-if-hes

I understand the idea that a person who rejects God at the last minute will throw away all he has done up to that point.

However, we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God, though this is the definition of mortal sin. Many mortal sins are committed in passion, that is, in the heat of the moment, temptation overwhelms.

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

 

[annspazz]

Matthrew 20 may be helpful:

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

This has always been a major question for me.

Consider a person who has been righteous and God fearing person all his life, but commits a mortal sin and dies before he can receive communion. Compare this to a person who has been evil all his life but repents on his deathbed.

Our catholic teaching tells us that the first person will go to he’ll while the second will go to heaven. I’ve always been disturbed by this and I found an answer here.

catholic.com/quickquestions/isnt-it-unfair-for-god-to-damn-someone-for-committing-a-last-minute-mortal-sin-if-hes

I understand the idea that a person who rejects God at the last minute will throw away all he has done up to that point.

However, we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God, though this is the definition of mortal sin. Many mortal sins are committed in passion, that is, in the heat of the moment, temptation overwhelms.

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

Big confusion, no?
You have no intellectual power to understand that.
I have no intellectual power to understand that.
You are not the Judge.
I am not the Judge.

What about leaving it to Jesus Christ to decide? He knows best.
As for us, let us Love Go with all our heart and Love our Brothers as we love God.

 

[jbarbaretta]

This has always been a major question for me.

Consider a person who has been righteous and God fearing person all his life, but commits a mortal sin and dies before he can receive communion. Compare this to a person who has been evil all his life but repents on his deathbed.

Our catholic teaching tells us that the first person will go to he’ll while the second will go to heaven. I’ve always been disturbed by this and I found an answer here.

catholic.com/quickquestions/isnt-it-unfair-for-god-to-damn-someone-for-committing-a-last-minute-mortal-sin-if-hes

I understand the idea that a person who rejects God at the last minute will throw away all he has done up to that point.

However, we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God, though this is the definition of mortal sin. Many mortal sins are committed in passion, that is, in the heat of the moment, temptation overwhelms.

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

Hi,

A couple technical notes here.

1. Going to communion after committing a mortal sin is only exacerbating the problem. It is also a mortal sin (sacrilege) to receive communion while not in a state of grace. The person needs confession. IF the person, in question wanted to go to confession but was unable before death, that is good enough, since it was not the person’s fault that they could not go, but genuinely wanted to go to confession.

So, if we take your adultery example, where he/she ends up depends a lot on whether he/she felt sorry for the sin committed and realized at that moment that he/she needed God’s mercy and forgiveness. Only God knows his/her heart and therefore only God can make that call, but it is not impossible for the adulterer in your scenario to go to heaven (may require a stop in purgatory en route though).

1. You stated that a mortal sin does not constitute a conscious rejection of God. What makes a grave sin mortal is that it must meet 3 conditions (grave matter, full knowledge and consent) and by meeting those conditions, you are in effect telling God that you don’t care that He loves us, you don’t care what He requires of us for our own good and therefore you don’t love Him enough to curb your behavior. That is, in fact, consciously rejecting God.

 

[JRKH]

This has always been a major question for me.

Consider a person who has been righteous and God fearing person all his life, but commits a mortal sin and dies before he can receive communion. Compare this to a person who has been evil all his life but repents on his deathbed.

I assume you mean “confession”, not communion above…
Also, has the person REPENTED before death or not??

Our catholic teaching tells us that the first person will go to he’ll while the second will go to heaven. I’ve always been disturbed by this and I found an answer here.

catholic.com/quickquestions/isnt-it-unfair-for-god-to-damn-someone-for-committing-a-last-minute-mortal-sin-if-hes

I understand the idea that a person who rejects God at the last minute will throw away all he has done up to that point.

However, we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God, though this is the definition of mortal sin. Many mortal sins are committed in passion, that is, in the heat of the moment, temptation overwhelms.

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

Overall what you ask is the classic “legalistic” argument that misses the fundamental understanding of what is at work when we speak of sin deserving of Hell. You allude to it slightly - but erroneously above where you state, “we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God…”
ALL Mortal sin has at it’s core a rejection of God and it MUST be a conscious rejection in order for the sin to be Mortal. The three requirements for a sin to be mortal should make this clear, but it seems that many miss it.
From the Catechism:
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
Full knowledge of the sinful character of the act
If you know something is gravely offensive to the one you profess to Love above all else, then how can you even consider doing it?
consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice
If, even knowing how gravely offensive the act is to your professed love you make the personal choice to do it anyway…how can this be justified as anything less than a personal and conscious rejection of God???

Those who try to skirt around this are simply deluding themselves.
Every Mortal sin, by definition, has at it’s core, the rejection of God and His Lordship over your life.

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

This has always been a major question for me.

Consider a person who has been righteous and God fearing person all his life, but commits a mortal sin and dies before he can receive communion. Compare this to a person who has been evil all his life but repents on his deathbed.

Our catholic teaching tells us that the first person will go to he’ll while the second will go to heaven. I’ve always been disturbed by this and I found an answer here.

catholic.com/quickquestions/isnt-it-unfair-for-god-to-damn-someone-for-committing-a-last-minute-mortal-sin-if-hes

I understand the idea that a person who rejects God at the last minute will throw away all he has done up to that point.

However, we know from experience that mortal sin does not always constitute a conscious rejection of God, though this is the definition of mortal sin. Many mortal sins are committed in passion, that is, in the heat of the moment, temptation overwhelms.

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

All mortal sins are a well* mortal.* And even if of passion and weakness still freely chosen…etc. (note of course what is needed for a mortal sin …and that various things can thus perhaps reduce culpability).

Remember the grace of perfect contrition can restore the person even if unable to get to confession.

God can give us grace even in our last moments…we need to one the one hand not fall into “presumption” (Jesus tells us to watch!..and that we do not know the day or hour…) on the other hand we need to always have hope and confidence in God (Jesus told us the story of the Shepherd and lost sheep…and read the parable of the lost coin too…)

Remember we live in hope:

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour."

Pope Benedict XVI (2006 Wed Audience on Paul …Vatican website (attacks again it seems) is down at the moment or I would give you the link)

 

[Joe_Kelley]

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 23* Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. 25 "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. * 31* Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32* For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

Ezekiel 18:21-32

 

[Joe_Kelley]

…

Take for example a righteous believer who falls to the temptation of adultery. Most of us would agree that he is at heart a decent person who failed to control his emotions at a single point in time. If he were to die while walking out the door of the bedroom, does he deserve eternal punishment?

Note that a mortal sin requires the full consent of the will of the sinner. Emotions may mitigate that consent. One cannot judge the degree of consent of another. [Personally, I would not like rely on it for my self. ]

 

[JamesAquinas]

Hi folks, thanks for your replies.

I’d like to talk about the nature of morta sin a little more. I do know the definition of mortal sin. It’s supposed to include a conscious rejections of God’s teachings.

But many of us have committed mortal sin before. I invite you to recall the last time you sinned. When you commit the offense, were you thinking “yeah I’m just gonna ignore the teachings of God for awhile and see what happens…” or “screw the teachings of the bible, I gotta do this!”? Or were you simply not thinking at all?

If you’re anything like me, the last option probably most accurately describes your state of mind when you sin. Especially when it comes to sins of the flesh, we do not think when we sin. How can this be called a conscious rejection of God?

I guess what I’m saying is: our personal experience of sin contradicts the theological definition. How do I go about resolving this contradiction?

 

[JRKH]

Hi folks, thanks for your replies.

I’d like to talk about the nature of morta sin a little more. I do know the definition of mortal sin. It’s supposed to include a conscious rejections of God’s teachings.

But many of us have committed mortal sin before. I invite you to recall the last time you sinned. When you commit the offense, were you thinking “yeah I’m just gonna ignore the teachings of God for awhile and see what happens…” or “screw the teachings of the bible, I gotta do this!”? Or were you simply not thinking at all?

If you’re anything like me, the last option probably most accurately describes your state of mind when you sin. Especially when it comes to sins of the flesh, we do not think when we sin. How can this be called a conscious rejection of God?

I guess what I’m saying is: our personal experience of sin contradicts the theological definition. How do I go about resolving this contradiction?

You ask a very good question and I can only hope I have an equally good answer.

Since it is spring - allow me to use a sports analogy here…
Being a disciple of Christ is not for sissies and it is not for the feint of heart. Christianity is the “big leagues”. It requires determination and practice, determination and practice, and more, determination and practice.
It is not about sliding along “simply not thinking at all”.
We are in training for Holiness. We study and we learn and then we practice so that we grow in Holiness. In other words so that we get better and better at hitting the mark.

Anyone who has been a part of a ball team, knows that one drills and drills and drills on the fundamentals so that one doesn’t even have to think, one just reacts correctly. The same is true in learning to avoid sin - mortal or otherwise.

It’s a matter of focus. Focus on God, on the goal of heaven, of being in love with God and pleasing our Love. Focus on the good and not on the bad.
I liken this to an archer trying to hit the target. In order do do so he does not worry about what is NOT the target. He focuses on what IS the target and develops only those skills that help him to achieve the goal and to keep improving.

So - I say to you dear friend, that the best and easiest way to avoid mortal sin - and indeed most any sin, is through focus on the Goal of the Beatific Vision and a determined commitment to and focus on that principal (Agape) and the associated skill sets that move you closer to the goal.

Yes you will stumble and yes you will occasionally have an arrow go sailing off in the wrong direction. But pick yourself off, dust yourself off, learn from the error and say to Our Lord Jesus, well coach - let’s start again…

Peace
James

 

[Carlan]

You ask a very good question and I can only hope I have an equally good answer.

Since it is spring - allow me to use a sports analogy here…
Being a disciple of Christ is not for sissies and it is not for the feint of heart. Christianity is the “big leagues”. It requires determination and practice, determination and practice, and more, determination and practice.
It is not about sliding along “simply not thinking at all”.
We are in training for Holiness. We study and we learn and then we practice so that we grow in Holiness. In other words so that we get better and better at hitting the mark.

Anyone who has been a part of a ball team, knows that one drills and drills and drills on the fundamentals so that one doesn’t even have to think, one just reacts correctly. The same is true in learning to avoid sin - mortal or otherwise.

It’s a matter of focus. Focus on God, on the goal of heaven, of being in love with God and pleasing our Love. Focus on the good and not on the bad.
I liken this to an archer trying to hit the target. In order do do so he does not worry about what is NOT the target. He focuses on what IS the target and develops only those skills that help him to achieve the goal and to keep improving.

So - I say to you dear friend, that the best and easiest way to avoid mortal sin - and indeed most any sin, is through focus on the Goal of the Beatific Vision and a determined commitment to and focus on that principal (Agape) and the associated skill sets that move you closer to the goal.

Yes you will stumble and yes you will occasionally have an arrow go sailing off in the wrong direction. But pick yourself off, dust yourself off, learn from the error and say to Our Lord Jesus, well coach - let’s start again…

Peace
James

Love your analogy James!
Peace, to all Carlan

 

[JamesAquinas]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Nice analogy too.

Of course we gotta work at avoiding sin and maximizing virtue. I’m sure that we will all try to do that in our lifetimes.

I still feel I need an answer on the mortal sin thing though. Perhaps I should raise this question with the apologists…

 

[JRKH]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Nice analogy too.

Of course we gotta work at avoiding sin and maximizing virtue. I’m sure that we will all try to do that in our lifetimes.

I still feel I need an answer on the mortal sin thing though. Perhaps I should raise this question with the apologists…

James,
My analogy WAS intended to answer the mortal sin thing…

Let me go back to your post and see if I can give more direct answers.

I’d like to talk about the nature of mortal sin a little more. I do know the definition of mortal sin. It’s supposed to include a conscious rejections of God’s teachings.

Yes - that is what it means to have full knowledge and deliberate consent

But many of us have committed mortal sin before. I invite you to recall the last time you sinned. When you commit the offense, were you thinking “yeah I’m just gonna ignore the teachings of God for awhile and see what happens…” or “screw the teachings of the bible, I gotta do this!”? Or were you simply not thinking at all?

Yes, these are all possibilities - to a point - except in truth there is no such thing as “Not thinking at all”. What you really refer to is what is your “baseline thought process”, and your “natural reaction” to a given set of stimuli.

If you’re anything like me, the last option probably most accurately describes your state of mind when you sin. Especially when it comes to sins of the flesh, we do not think when we sin. How can this be called a conscious rejection of God?

Failure to think (properly) is no excuse if, had you thought, you would know it was sinful…
Think of it this way. You are the brain, and your car is your body. If you consciously drive your car down a hill and off a 200 foot cliff, you will likely die. If, halfway down the hill, you take your hands and feet off the controls but don’t set any “brakes”, just letting the car roll freely, will the result be any different??

I guess what I’m saying is: our personal experience of sin contradicts the theological definition. How do I go about resolving this contradiction?

You see a contradiction where there is none. You know that lust and fornication and murder, and theft, and false witness,and anger, etc.are sins. They are grave sins. Trying to claim that you “just didn’t think” at the time does not really offer much mitigation.
The Catechism addresses this somewhat here:
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
People who either “just aren’t thinking” or say “I just gotta do this” or in some other way try to justify their action are hardening their hearts and feigning ignorance. (I speak from personal experience here). “I just wasn’t thinking” might be considered a valid excuse for someone very young (spiritually) in the faith, but not for someone more mature.

Jesus sets the bar very high in Mt 5:48 when He says, “…Therefore you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Perfection comes from driving out the imperfect and training ourselves (through the grace of the Spirit) to “react” properly. So that in those cases where “I just wasn’t thinking”, my gut, unthinking, reaction is holy not sinful. If my unthinking, gut reaction is sinful, then I still have a lot of work to do, for I am not worthy of the perfection of heaven.
At this point then I refer back to the analogies above - perfection is sought in training, in perseverance, in thinking holy and in acting holy, so that “Holiness” becomes the gut, “unthinking” normal reaction in any given situation.

Peace
James

 

[Gidras05]

We are all called to have a moral conscience- it’s for this reason why we are to do an examination of conscience often enough that we have extensive knowledge of what constitutes a grave sin against God. This is also why we are called to confess our sins, even venial ones, since it helps build an informed conscience (of course there’s the reconciliation part of it too!).

To further exemplify this idea, the catechism talks about deliberate ignorance, or in other words, avoiding finding out what constitutes grave matter. If you don’t inform your conscience, and attempt to build that up so that we’ll know how we’re turning our backs on God, we become cuplable, especially when we have the means and faculties available to find this out. This is why younger children are less culpable, both because of the limit of understanding, and because of the lack of feasibility in learning these intense topics.

As for sins of passion, they are still sins, and the culpability of those sins MAY somewhat be mitigated by extraneous factors that might “blur” the “full consent” portion of a mortal sin. The catechism’s teaching on Masturbation is a perfect example of this. However, when we confess our sins, we aren’t just saying sorry to God. We’re promising change, which means we have to be consciously making an effort to prevent sins of passion. This is also why we (in the new act of contrition) make a point of saying that we will avoid the occasion of sin as well, since it might lead us into that mindset.

Lastly, and most importantly, our idea on how God will judge us (culpability, whether or not it really was a mortal sin in this specific example, etc etc) is only just that- an idea. We cannot truly know how God will judge you on a specific sinful act, since we may not know all the corresponding factors. But personally? I wouldn’t want to try to test my limits. Any and all sins of grave matter (any sins at all actually), I seek to confess, do penance, and amend my life.

Sins of the passion are not worth the price of my soul.

 

[Gidras05]

Also, this is probably the best document that I know that covers most of these topics, on what is or isn’t “ignorance”, what is a mortal sin, some specific examples, and deliberate ignorance (and how it actually increases the culpability of sin).

This document should answer all your questions:

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp