Last Supper Christ's Body?

[Flatty10]

A Lecturer of mine told me that at the last supper, that because Jesus was actually present (hands and feet etc) that the meal they partook in was not the actual body and blood. His reasoning was that Jesus himself was the sacrament and they apostles still partook in a mass, because they still had this union with Christ and celebrated pretty much what we celebrate at mass today. Another thing is this meal was prior the resurrection so it could not have been the glorified body.

Im unsure on what the Church teaches? or what anyone else thinks.

Just to clarify i’m not speaking about the Eucharist we celebrate at Mass today, ONLY the last supper.

 

[JM3]

When Jesus said ‘This is My body’, was He lying?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

19* And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. *

Luke 22:19-20 He says it is the same body and blood.

 

[SouthpawLink]

St. Augustine is witness to the Catholic doctrine:

“‘And was carried in His Own Hands:’ how ‘carried in His Own Hands’? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body’” (Exposition on Psalm XXXIV, 1; NPNF 1, Vol. VIII).

And the Baltimore Catechism teaches:

“The Mass is the sacrifice of the New Law in which Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself to God in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine. … Our Divine Savior said the first Mass, at the Last Supper, the night before He died” (qq. 357, 365).

 

[NeedImprovement]

When Jesus said ‘This is My body’, was He lying?

,and did He say, “Do this in memory of Me” or did He say, “Do something like this in memory of Me” ?

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is timeless.

 

[Flatty10]

so did the apostles consume his mortal body (ie. Not the glorified body)???

 

[Lamafacaja]

A Lecturer of mine told me that at the last supper, that because Jesus was actually present (hands and feet etc) that the meal they partook in was not the actual body and blood. His reasoning was that Jesus himself was the sacrament and they apostles still partook in a mass, because they still had this union with Christ and celebrated pretty much what we celebrate at mass today. Another thing is this meal was prior the resurrection so it could not have been the glorified body.

Im unsure on what the Church teaches? or what anyone else thinks.

Just to clarify i’m not speaking about the Eucharist we celebrate at Mass today, ONLY the last supper.

This is heresy. The Eucharist that the Apostles received at the Last Supper was the same as we receive at the Mass today. Christ was not restricted by time.

 

[Flatty10]

Then you would have to conclude that before his death, Jesus body was already the resurrected one, even before the resurrection.

Which doesn’t make much sense?

 

[NeedImprovement]

When Jesus walked on the water He showed he had the power to do as He wished with His human body (and that would be pre-Resurrection - the Resurrection did not somehow make Him God), including to change the substance of it without changing its appearances or accidents.

At His miraculous birth our Blessed Mother remains a Virgin before during and after His birth.

After the Resurrection he was with the disciples even though the doors were locked.

What’s the difference ?

 

[Barbkw]

Yep, as above.

He said the bread was His Body. It’s His Body.

Just as Jesus healed people by touch, from far away and through the cloths He wore.

 

[elvisman]

Then you would have to conclude that before his death, Jesus body was already the resurrected one, even before the resurrection.

Which doesn’t make much sense?

Consider this:
**Enoch and Elijah were taken up by God in the OT. Mary was conceived without sin. These things were ALL due to the price Jesus paid on the cross. His sacrifice was applied to them beforehand because he is God and is not bound by time. **

How is it that one can accept the salvation of these people BEFORE the crucifixion but not the fact that Jesus gave the apostles his Body and Blood?

Rev. 13:8 tells us that Christ slain before the foundation of the world. His sacrifice is ETERNAL.

 

[JM3]

Then you would have to conclude that before his death, Jesus body was already the resurrected one, even before the resurrection.

Which doesn’t make much sense?

It ‘doesn’t make sense’, because you are reasoning with limited knowledge and faith. Therefore, your conclusion is incorrect.

Consider:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

Catechism of the Catholic Church

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that** Mary**, “full of grace” through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

492** The “splendour of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.**136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

So, how is The Blessed Virgin redeemed by the merits of Jesus, if He has not been born yet, has not lived, died and resurrected?

By your reasoning of the Last Supper, it is not possible, but since it is true, as revealed by the Holy Spirit, your reasoning must be in error.

 

[Flatty10]

ok cool, i agree with pretty much everything that peeps have said.

but does that mean from the moment Christ was conceived, his body was already the resurrected one?

Because i always thought that was a difference in his body, before and after the resurrection?

 

[Stylites]

When Jesus said ‘This is My body’, was He lying?

Your rhetorical question is to the point: Christ is God, and God is truth. If He says ‘This is my body’ then it is, in the same way He cured sick people, by looking at them and declaring to the sick that they are cured, and as nature is obedient to the Creator, a sick person became immediately cured. God cannot lie; His public miracles were incidents of His words contradicting the physical world, and the world then having to conform to the new truth.

 

[Flatty10]

This doesn’t mean that we have to take EVERYTHING he says as literal though. I agree that the body and blood should be taken literally though. Other wise when Christ said it would be easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, it would actually be impossible for any rich person to enter heaven. which it is not.

Its the intended meaning which cannot be a contradiction.

 

[djwright4341]

ok cool, i agree with pretty much everything that peeps have said.

but does that mean from the moment Christ was conceived, his body was already the resurrected one?

Because i always thought that was a difference in his body, before and after the resurrection?

Christ’s Sacrifice on the cross and Resurrection are not fixed points in time. He is God, not just a man. God transcends time. Those points exist at all times (forward and backward), which is how we are able to enter into them at Mass every day. A good analogy is rings in a tree, we perceive them at the point where the tree is cut down, but they run all through the tree whether we see them or not.

 

[JM3]

ok cool, i agree with pretty much everything that peeps have said.

but does that mean from the moment Christ was conceived, his body was already the resurrected one?

Because i always thought that was a difference in his body, before and after the resurrection?

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1S.HTM

Catechism of the Catholic Church

PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO I. THE CREEDS
CHAPTER TWO I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
Article 5 “HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”
Paragraph 2. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.508 **Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; **for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.509 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.510

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.511

 

[JM3]

This doesn’t mean that we have to take EVERYTHING he says as literal though. I agree that the body and blood should be taken literally though. Other wise when Christ said it would be easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, it would actually be impossible for any rich person to enter heaven. which it is not.

Its the intended meaning which cannot be a contradiction.

Have you tried to get a camel through the eye of a needle?

How many ‘rich’ persons do you have knowledge of that have entered heaven?

Why do you make a declaration (underlined) without proof, or definition of ‘rich person’?

If your reasoning is in error, as has been shown, then how can your conclusions be accurate or trustworthy?

 

[NeedImprovement]

Then you would have to conclude that before his death, Jesus body was already the resurrected one, even before the resurrection.

Which doesn’t make much sense?

ok cool, i agree with pretty much everything that peeps have said.

but does that mean from the moment Christ was conceived, his body was already the resurrected one?

Because i always thought that was a difference in his body, before and after the resurrection?

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1S.HTM

Catechism of the Catholic Church

PART ONE: THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO I. THE CREEDS
CHAPTER TWO I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
Article 5 “HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”
Paragraph 2. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.508 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.509 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.510

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.511

One thing I particularly like about the way Flatty10 worded the question(s) quoted above particularly in light of JM3’s post also quoted directly above , is that all of it combined together got me thinking along a certain line this morning…

… that of the Transfiguration of our Lord on Mount Tabor -

(clickable)

[i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/eilatim/Israel%20travel/th_Northmarch2009074.jpg]("[[URL='http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/eilatim/Israel%20travel/th_Northmarch2009074.jpg']i133.photobucket.com/albums/q64/eilatim/Israel%20travel/th_Northmarch2009074.jpg](Photobucket tabor/eilatim/Israel travel/Northmarch2009074.jpg?o=137)

We are told in Chapter 17 of Matthew [NAB] that our Blessed Lord , “was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light”,

and most notably, that after the Transfiguration, he instructed the three apostles who accompanied him," Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

For one’s face to shine “like the sun” and for one’s clothes to become “white as light” even surpasses what our CCC says about the “new properties of a glorious body” .These things are describing God’s glory being manifested in His human body. Yet, "Jesus charged them, ’ Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.’ "

 

[elvisman]

ok cool, i agree with pretty much everything that peeps have said.

but does that mean from the moment Christ was conceived, his body was already the resurrected one?

Because i always thought that was a difference in his body, before and after the resurrection?

Rev. 13:8 tells us that Christ was slain befoe the foundations of the world.

Your problem is not only that you reject the doctrione of the Hypostatic Union - you reject the Scriptures themselves. You fail to see that God is not bound by time or space or ANY other barrier you can conceive of because he is omnipotent and you ain’t.