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Luvtosew
Guest
Is communion part of the Last Supper and part of the Crucifixion of Jesus ?
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bmullins
Guest
The last supper was a Passover celebration. The celebration started at the beginning of this celebration, and ended with the sacrifice of the Lamb at the cross. The last supper was essentially the first ‘communion’ but at every communion the same sacrifice is present. So communion is part of the Last Supper, and communion is part of the crucifixion because they are on and the same.
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TheDoctor
Guest
I think I understand your question and I think the answer is yes and yes.
During the Liturgy of the Eucharist during Mass, the Priest consecrates the bread and wine, doing literally what Jesus commanded us to do in Matthew 26:28:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks,* and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
Jesus tells us that there will be more beyond the last supper (“which will be shed on behalf of many”) which conlcudes on Calvary. This is why the Priest will continue with one of the Eucharistic prayers which includes"
Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son. We, your people and your ministers, recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into glory; and from the many gifts you have given us we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation. EP1
In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. EP2
Father, calling to mind the death your Son endured for our salvation, his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven, and ready to greet him when he comes again, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice. Look with favor on your Church’s offering, and see the Victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself. Grant that we, who are nourished by his body and blood, may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ. EP3
Father, we now celebrate this memorial of our redemption. We recall Christ’s death, his descent among the dead, his resurrection, and his ascension to your right hand; and, looking forward to his coming in glory, we offer you his body and blood, the acceptable sacrifice which brings salvation to the whole world. Lord, look upon this sacrifice which you have given to your Church; and by your Holy Spirit, gather all who share this one bread and one cup into the one body of Christ, a living sacrifice of praise. EP4
catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm
Did we answer what you were asking?
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japhy
Guest
The celebration of the Eucharist (which includes the consecration of the bread and wine, and our reception of the consecrated elements in Holy Communion) is a participation in the whole Paschal mystery of Christ: the Last Supper, His Passion, His death on the cross, and His Resurrection. So yes, Communion is “part” of the Last Supper and Christ’s death, in that it is a participation in them.
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Luvtosew
Guest
TheDoctor- Thank you and thank you for the link.
Father, calling to mind the death your Son endured for our salvation, his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven, and ready to greet him when he comes again, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
Look with favor on your Church’s offering, and see the Victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself. Grant that we, who are nourished by his body and blood, may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ.
What is this holy and living sacrifice refering to? (the living sacrifice)
and this **your Church’s offering, and see the Victim whose death /B
so Jesus is being offered to the Father again? and why do we refer to him as the victim?
Thank you.**
Father, calling to mind the death your Son endured for our salvation, his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven, and ready to greet him when he comes again, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
Look with favor on your Church’s offering, and see the Victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself. Grant that we, who are nourished by his body and blood, may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ.
What is this holy and living sacrifice refering to? (the living sacrifice)
and this **your Church’s offering, and see the Victim whose death /B
so Jesus is being offered to the Father again? and why do we refer to him as the victim?
Thank you.**
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TheDoctor
Guest
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japhy
Guest
We (the Church) offer God the Father the perfect sacrifice, that of His Son. This sacrifice is not another sacrifice, it is the same sacrifice, re-presented in time. This sacrifice is the same one which Jesus pre-presented (anticipated) under a sacramental form at the Last Supper, the same one which He presented (offered) on the cross. Jesus is not re-sacrificed; He does not – He cannot – die again. Thus, the sacrifice which we offer God in the Mass is a living sacrifice.
The word “Victim” is used to refer, of course, to Jesus, who is the sacrificial Victim Whose death brought redemption to the world.
Christian worship of God has always included obedience to Jesus’ command at the Last Supper to “do this in memory of [Him]”. So what is it that Jesus did at the Last Supper? He took bread and wine, said a prayer of thanksgiving to God (a eucharistia), and gave them to His disciples, who ate and drank. Jesus said of the bread, “This is my body which is given for you,” and of the cup, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
Jesus said that the bread was His body, and the wine His blood. The earliest Christians (and Catholics today) believed this to be true (and not merely a symbol). What is more, Jesus said the bread – His body – “is given”, in the present tense, and that the wine – His blood – “is poured out”, in the present tense. By speaking in the present tense, Jesus was saying that His sacrifice, which would be physically presented on the cross the next day, was in a real sense present already at the Last Supper.
Thus, at the Last Supper, what Jesus was doing, and what He told us to do in His memory, is to make present His sacrifice. What was His sacrifice? His body and blood. What was the purpose of making His sacrifice present? Two: to offer Himself as a sacrifice to the Father, and to be received by His disciples as a sacrificial banquet. So this is what Christians have been doing.
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Luvtosew
Guest
I have no problem with the last supper, its in 4 gospels and Paul did it also.
I do have a problem understanding why the same sacrifice is reproduced at every Mass.
I never remember Jesus saying do this in memory of me, but I remember him saying,
“It is finished”
and I see the Church refers to Jesus as a victim which I don’t understand and Jesus is not or has he ever been a victim, he willingly died for us.
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down a of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:17-18 (ESV)
No victim in above verse. As far as sacrifice yes Jesus did sacrifice himself for us, the perfect sacrifice, but why would he need to continue being lifted up to the father as sacrifice when he is sitting at the right hand of the Father and he is everywhere.
He commanded his spirit to the Father on the Cross.
Trying to just make sense of this. I do thank you.
I do have a problem understanding why the same sacrifice is reproduced at every Mass.
I never remember Jesus saying do this in memory of me, but I remember him saying,
“It is finished”
and I see the Church refers to Jesus as a victim which I don’t understand and Jesus is not or has he ever been a victim, he willingly died for us.
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down a of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:17-18 (ESV)
No victim in above verse. As far as sacrifice yes Jesus did sacrifice himself for us, the perfect sacrifice, but why would he need to continue being lifted up to the father as sacrifice when he is sitting at the right hand of the Father and he is everywhere.
He commanded his spirit to the Father on the Cross.
Trying to just make sense of this. I do thank you.
Luke 22:19
The word victim does not just mean the unwilling subject of a violent act like an auto accident or an act of nature . The primary definition of victim refers to the living (at least at the beginning) subject of a sacrificial action. The victim can be either a willing or unwilling participant. Obviously Christ was a willing victim in the sacrifice at Calvary.
Our language refers to events occurring in a linear fashion because that is how we experience them. But the sacrifice of Calvary and the Last Supper transcends time. We speak of the Mass as a re-presentation of the sacrifice because that is how we experience it. But it is really more a case that each Mass is a window (sort of a supernatural wormhole if you will; please forgive my scifi way of thinking ) through time and space that makes us present at that original sacrifice of Calvary.
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Sacred_Heart_1
Guest
Communion is present in the Last Supper and the Crucifixion of Jesus. At the Last Supper Christ proclaims his Sacrifice and at the Crucifixion Christ performs the act of sacrifice. In both his body is given up for the salvation of the world.
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Luvtosew
Guest
Yes I read how the Priest opens heaven up and calls down Christ, so SMHW I know where you get the sic fi stuff from!
I have read that,
now the re presentation of the sacrifice is Jesus, and he is offered back up to God
and also to the people in church?
why does the church feels it needs to re present the sacrifice of Jesus. Re enact it?
I know John 6 is what the Church uses for real flesh so I know where that came from.
We of course should always have in the forefront of our mind what Christ did at the Cross for us, his sacrifice for all the world for forgiveness of sins.
I think that is what the Last Supper is about, a spiritual rememberance of what Christ did for us.
I always thought the sacrifice was the bread and wine which was taught to me years ago,
and when I recehecked the Balt. Cathechism it does mention the transubstantiation word but it was never told to us, I would of remember I would think, as the nuns probably didn’t have time to teach everything. Never heard the heavens opened up, and is using the word victim new?
I do thank you for your patience.
I have read that,now the re presentation of the sacrifice is Jesus, and he is offered back up to God
and also to the people in church?
why does the church feels it needs to re present the sacrifice of Jesus. Re enact it?
I know John 6 is what the Church uses for real flesh so I know where that came from.
We of course should always have in the forefront of our mind what Christ did at the Cross for us, his sacrifice for all the world for forgiveness of sins.
I think that is what the Last Supper is about, a spiritual rememberance of what Christ did for us.
I always thought the sacrifice was the bread and wine which was taught to me years ago,
and when I recehecked the Balt. Cathechism it does mention the transubstantiation word but it was never told to us, I would of remember I would think, as the nuns probably didn’t have time to teach everything. Never heard the heavens opened up, and is using the word victim new?
I do thank you for your patience.
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teachccd
Guest
In the Letter to the Hebrews Jesus is noted as being the eternal high priest. A priest is one who offers sacrifice. So if Jesus is the eternal high priest then the sacrifice that He offers is eternal. It is present to the Father eternally and the Mass enters us into that perpetual reality. When Jesus said, “It is finished” He is referring to the renewal of the covenant. Obviously His mission could not be finished since He still needed to rise from the dead and ascend to the Father.
In the Book of Isaiah we find Jesus referred to as the lamb led to the slaughter. Being that Jesus had no sin and was deserving of none of the torture that He was subjected to then He was a victim of our transgressions. Yes, He was a willing vicitm but a victim none the less. He did lay down His life for us but the key here is that it was FOR US and not for Him. So Jesus became the victim of human disobedience and followed His Father’s will to the cross. Remember when He asked His Father whether or not this cup might pass from Him? Any time there is a sacrifice there has to be a victim of that sacrifice.
Lastly, if you read any of the synoptic Gospels you will find Jesus saying, “Do this in memory of me” in all of the Last Supper accounts.
Peace be with you and thank you for hearing our reasons for believing in the way that we do. The Mass is heaven on earth and there is no greater gift. God bless…teachccd
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teachccd
Guest
The Church does not feel the need to re- present the sacrifice of Jesus. The Church enters into the eternal sacrifice of Christ that happened once and is perpetuated until Jesus comes again. Paul is clear when he said that as often as we eat this bread and drink this cup we procalim the death of our Lord until He comes again.
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Luvtosew
Guest
**Paul is clear when he said that as often as we eat this bread and drink this cup we procalim the death of our Lord until He comes again. **
yes reenactment of the last supper. Paul is also clear when he said not to drink blood.
I do believe Hebrews goes on to say not necessary to offer the sacrifice day after day.
but than you for explaining your view.
yes reenactment of the last supper. Paul is also clear when he said not to drink blood.
I do believe Hebrews goes on to say not necessary to offer the sacrifice day after day.
but than you for explaining your view.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, you know, for hundreds and hundreds of years Catholics managed to hear the Word of God (written and oral), managed to either read the words or have them read to them, listened to the priests and bishops of the Church and to other holy, learned men who listened for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and from the time of the apostles on down, people understood that the Mass is the entrance into an event which took place ‘in’ time around the year AD 33 or so yet, in eternity, exists for all time. Thus we understand from Christ Himself that we are to eat His Body and Drink His Blood in order to have life within us (John 6). Now, how are we to ‘eat and drink’ if all we receive is a ‘symbol’ or memorial? We must take and receive the ‘real presence’ and we do so by being, in every Mass every offered at any time, not at "St So-and-So’s on Thursday, February 2, 2012’ but being ‘there’ at the Last Supper and the Cross ‘in AD 33 or so’. . .and that was the case for our parents at Mass in AD 1970, our grandparents in 1940, our forebears in 1650, 1210, 700, 530, 380, 115. . .etc. etc. just as it will be for us and for all who attend Mass tomorrow, Friday February 3, 2012’ and so on and on and on.
If God can be Three Divine Persons in One God, born of a Virgin, suffer and die on a cross, be dead for 3 days, rise from the dead, etc., I think He can also manage to ‘bend’ time and space and permit us all to join with Him in the original, ONE AND ONLY SACRIFICE which we enter into WITH HIM at every Mass, every day, every where.
But don’t just take my word for it. You’re lucky, you have the word of the Church which is guaranteed by God Himself to be free from error when it comes to the teaching on Faith and Morals. You don’t have to be bound by mere ‘men’ (or women) who are considering only their points of view based on their own ‘times’ and experiences.
If God can be Three Divine Persons in One God, born of a Virgin, suffer and die on a cross, be dead for 3 days, rise from the dead, etc., I think He can also manage to ‘bend’ time and space and permit us all to join with Him in the original, ONE AND ONLY SACRIFICE which we enter into WITH HIM at every Mass, every day, every where.
But don’t just take my word for it. You’re lucky, you have the word of the Church which is guaranteed by God Himself to be free from error when it comes to the teaching on Faith and Morals. You don’t have to be bound by mere ‘men’ (or women) who are considering only their points of view based on their own ‘times’ and experiences.
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promethius
Guest
Eh… that’s a bit of archaic prose to use.Yes I read how the Priest opens heaven up and calls down Christ, so SMHW I know where you get the sic fi stuff from!
More accurately, in mass the heavens are opened up and we are joined to the eternal worship as documented in the book of Revelation… whence comes the mass.
Not offered TO the people in the church, offered FOR the people in the church.
Please don’t use the term “reenact”, that’s offensive. It implies that we’re merely presenting a play… make believe of a former event.
Have you not read the book of Revelation? Do you not understand that the mass is built on the worship described in said scripture? The Lamb stands on the altar, bloody as though sacrificed, ETERNALLY. In the mass we join in this eternal worship.
Not to mention every verse about the passover in the Old Covenant, which demands that we consume the paschal sacrifice.
We of course should always have in the forefront of our mind what Christ did at the Cross for us, his sacrifice for all the world for forgiveness of sins.
Find me one place in the Bible where Jesus or God the Father commands a “spiritual rememberance” outside of this situation…
In the meantime, I’d like you to ponder this:
Communion is the fullness of the passover sacrifice that the Jews made in reparation to God under the old covenant. In order to participate in that sacrifice, you had to consume the lamb… literally. If you did not participate in the original passover sacrifice, the Holy Spirit killed you that night. Thereafter, those who did not participate by eating the lamb were damned.
So how in the world do we arrive at the conclusion that the final passover sacrifice, the fulfillment of the old covenant and the foundation of the new, is something which we only “symbolically” do? That’s a stretch of the imagination for anyone.
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teachccd
Guest
First of all this is not just my view but the view of a Church that has been in existance for 2000 years, Even the Orthodox Churches who split away in the 11th century knows this to be the truth.
Again we are not offering a different sacrifice day after day. We are entering into the one sacrifice perpetuated by Christ until He comes again. Read Malachi 1:11 for a prophet’s understanding of the Mass.
When Paul exhorts those not to drink blood he was being ecumenical with the Jews of his time who did not follow Christ. One must read Scipture in its full context to form a proper eisogesis of the text and not make an exogesis whereby we are putting things into the texts that are not there.
Your view and those who hold your view is a protestant position that was unheard of prior to the 16th century “reformation”, When one reads the writings of the Early Church Fathers one can clearly see the essence of the Mass and how it was known from the very beginnings of the Church. Paul states in 1 Cor 10 that the cup of blessings is a participation in the blood of Christ. He could not say that if he just exhorted us not to drink blood. He would not only be confused but would surely confuse his contemporaries… teachccd
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ProVobis
Guest
The Latin is and has been hostia, better translated IMO as Victim. (In some of the old and Anglican missals it was translated as “host.”)
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