Last Words of Jesus

[paarsurrey]

Jesus was a person of prayer. The Gospel recounts many incidents where he would be spending time by himself in deep prayer. He taught the Lord Prayer . Besides praying he fasted too.

What does it mean when Jesus said those words?

It could not mean that God has abandoned him .

It’s also not likely a prayer per se, as these words sound very much like an accusation, “Why had you forsaken me?”

Hi

We Muslim don’t take it as an accusation or as words of anguish. We take it as is mentioned in Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:214] Mankind were one community, then they differed among themselves, so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and sent down with them the book containing the truth that He might judge between the people wherein they differed. But then they began to differ about the Book, and none differed about it except those to whom it was given, after clear Signs had come to them, out of envy towards one another. Now has Allah, by His command, guided the believers to the truth in regard to which they (the unbelievers) differed; and Allah guides whomsoever He pleases to the right path. **
[2:215] Do you think that you will enter heaven while there has not come to you the like of that which came to those who passed away before you? Poverty and afflictions befell them and they were violently shaken until the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, ‘When will the help of Allah come?’ Yea, surely the help of Allah is nigh.**
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=212

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

We Muslim don’t take it as an accusation or as words of anguish. We take it as is mentioned in Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:214] Mankind were one community, then they differed among themselves, so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and sent down with them the book containing the truth that He might judge between the people wherein they differed. But then they began to differ about the Book, and none differed about it except those to whom it was given, after clear Signs had come to them, out of envy towards one another. Now has Allah, by His command, guided the believers to the truth in regard to which they (the unbelievers) differed; and Allah guides whomsoever He pleases to the right path. **
[2:215] Do you think that you will enter heaven while there has not come to you the like of that which came to those who passed away before you? Poverty and afflictions befell them and they were violently shaken until the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, ‘When will the help of Allah come?’ Yea, surely the help of Allah is nigh.**
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=212

Thanks

Hi.

How do the mentioned Quran verses explain what Jesus said on the cross? How do you connect it to the words that Jesus said on the cross? To me, they do not have any connection at all, unless it is by wide stretch of creative imagination.

Do you mind to demonstrate to us how you connect the above verses to what Jesus said?

Thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

afflictions befell them and they were violently shaken until the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, ‘When will the help of Allah come?’ Yea, surely the help of Allah is nigh.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter…=2&v erse=212

Hi.
How do the mentioned Quran verses explain what Jesus said on the cross? How do you connect it to the words that Jesus said on the cross? To me, they do not have any connection at all, unless it is by wide stretch of creative imagination.
Do you mind to demonstrate to us how you connect the above verses to what Jesus said?
Thanks.

Hi

I did not mean that the verses were specific to Jesus only. The verses are general for the ProphetMessengers and their follower believers. Sometimes or often the tribulations reach to the climax and then GodAllahYHWH accepts the prayer with additional rewards from Him.

I understand from our Muslim standpoint, though you may differ wit me from your Catholic standpoint, that Jesus alongwith his disciples prayed to GodAllahYHWH most fervently that he should be saved from the Cup , at the garden called Gethesmane. The reward was that he was saved from cursed death on Cross, the Jews who inflicted torture were punished by GodAllahYHWH, Jesus message was accepted by large numbers in the lands he migrated to from Galilee, alongwith Mary and other trusted Apostles. So, the reward was manyfold and extraordinary.

This phenomenon has been experessed in other verses of Quran also:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:153] Therefore, remember Me, and I will remember you; and be thankful to Me and do not be ungrateful to Me.
[2:154] O ye who believe, seek help through perseverance and Prayer; surely, Allah is with those who patiently persevere.
[2:155] And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah that they are dead; nay they are living, only you perceive not.**
[2:156] And We will try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere.
[2:157] Who, when a misfortune overtakes them, say, ‘Surely, to Allah we belong and to Him shall we return.’
[2:158] It is these on whom descend blessings from their Lord and also mercy, and it is these who are rightly guided. **www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=152

I think I have cleared the point reasonably.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

I did not mean that the verses were specific to Jesus only. The verses are general for the ProphetMessengers and their follower believers. Sometimes or often the tribulations reach to the climax and then GodAllahYHWH accepts the prayer with additional rewards from Him.

I understand from our Muslim standpoint, though you may differ wit me from your Catholic standpoint, that Jesus alongwith his disciples prayed to GodAllahYHWH most fervently that he should be saved from the Cup , at the garden called Gethesmane. The reward was that he was saved from cursed death on Cross, the Jews who inflicted torture were punished by GodAllahYHWH, Jesus message was accepted by large numbers in the lands he migrated to from Galilee, alongwith Mary and other trusted Apostles. So, the reward was manyfold and extraordinary.

Hi.

There are many problems with your position.

1. If you accept until the point that Jesus was hanged on the cross - the only plausible conclusion is he died there. There is too much evidence to suggest that he could not possibly survived the crucifixion.
2. It’s not Biblical for Jesus to be rescued from the cross:

• He himself wanted to achieve this death. He foretold it. He reprimanded Peter in the strongest term when the latter suggested he should not die.
• It would make God a liar and a deciever, which is contrary to God’s nature. He never lies nor decieves.

You based your position on these words:

“Father take this cup from me if you will” &

“God, why have you forsaken me”.

These have been explained and do not mean he did not want to endure the sufferring or he did not want to die.

Both words expressed his pain and suffering.

Sure there are some verses where God saved his people but certainly it does not apply here because it did not serve the purpose of God nor they are consistent with God’s nature.

 

[paarsurrey]

There are many problems with your position.
Sure there are some verses where God saved his people but certainly it does not apply here because it did not serve the purpose of God nor they are consistent with God’s nature.

Hi

I don’t agree with you. There is no promblem with my position. Jesus was seen in other countries, he lived there for a long time afterwards, he died there and was buried there, and his tomb is also there that vindicates my position.

It is according to the purpose of GodAllahYHWH and is consistent with his nature.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 40: Al-Mu’min

[40:52] Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth,
[40:53] The day when their pleading will not profit the wrongdoers, and for them will be the curse and for them will be the evil abode.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=40&verse=45

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

I don’t agree with you. There is no promblem with my position. Jesus was seen in other countries, he lived there for a long time afterwards, he died there and was buried there, and his tomb is also there that vindicates my position.

It is according to the purpose of GodAllahYHWH and is consistent with his nature.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 40: Al-Mu’min

[40:52] Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth,
[40:53] The day when their pleading will not profit the wrongdoers, and for them will be the curse and for them will be the evil abode.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=40&verse=45

Thanks

It is certainly unBiblical. If Jesus came back everybody would know for his return is like a lightning in the sky and people from the East to the West would know.

But OK, just to go along with you. How do you know that the person was Jesus? What proof was there to show that it was he? I mean, anyone can claim that he/she is Jesus, but it may be not necessary so. How is that nearly the entire world does not know?

 

[Reuben_J]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 40: Al-Mu’min

[40:52] Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth,
[40:53] The day when their pleading will not profit the wrongdoers, and for them will be the curse and for them will be the evil abode.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=40&verse=45

It’s unlikely that these verses support the return of Jesus. I think you are mistaken in your understanding of them.

Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth.
What is the best for Allah to help his messenger? Surely in the case of Jesus, assuming that he was taken to heaven, that should be the best way that Allah did for him. Right? What is better than in paradise compared to life on earth? Like Elijah, who was taken to heaven, and that was the best for him - getting to heaven right away without undergoing the earthly death.

For Allah to send Jesus back to earth in this case is a disfavor for him, don’t you think? Or do you think that it is better on earth than it is in heaven?

The day when their pleading will not profit the wrongdoers, and for them will be the curse and for them will be the evil abode.
I don’t see any judgment yet so this verse does not apply to Jesus.

 

[planten]

Interesting topic. What were the last words of jesus. Important people have important last words.

What were last words of Jesus?

For example, gMark’s last words of Jesus were, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me”?

That was according to the gospel of Mark. But I am surprised to see these words. Jesus said “My God, My God…”. It means Jesus had a God? What will the christians please say about it?

The other thing is posted by the scooter: It is about Jesus:

he put Doubting Thomas in his place and then he rose up to heaven.

What does this mean “He put doubting Thomas in his place?” I am interested in knowing what is the meaning of putting in his place please. Does it mean “putting doubting Thomas in his own place?” scooter should please explain it. Thanks.

I had asked a question. It was surprising to note that jesus had a God. That is proved from his words on the cross “O My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”

We muslims believe that he (Jesus) was a messenger of God. The christians also believe that he was a prophet of God. So it is well proved from the bible that jesus had a God and he was a messenger of God, same as Muhammad was a messenger of God. Please see the verse 7:158 of the Quran below. And the mission of muhammad was for all mankind. Please see:

[7:158] Say, ‘O mankind, truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but He. He gives life and He causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Ummi Prophet, who believes in Allah and His words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.’

 

[paarsurrey]

It’s unlikely that these verses support the return of Jesus. I think you are mistaken in your understanding of them. .

Hi

I don’t think I mentioned that the verses quoted by me speak of Return of Jesus in any way. Kindly quote if if it is mentioned in them in this connection to remove the confusion, if any.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

It’s unlikely that these verses support the return of Jesus. I think you are mistaken in your understanding of them.

Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth.

What is the best for Allah to help his messenger? Surely in the case of Jesus, assuming that he was taken to heaven, that should be the best way that Allah did for him. Right? What is better than in paradise compared to life on earth? Like Elijah, who was taken to heaven, and that was the best for him - getting to heaven right away without undergoing the earthly death.

For Allah to send Jesus back to earth in this case is a disfavor for him, don’t you think? Or do you think that it is better on earth than it is in heaven?

The day when their pleading will not profit the wrongdoers, and for them will be the curse and for them will be the evil abode.
I don’t see any judgment yet so this verse does not apply to Jesus.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim. We do not believe that GodAllahYHWH took Jesus to heaven from the Cross. What GodAllahYHWH did was that Jesus was delivered from the Cross in near-dead nevertheless very much alive position. He got resussicated in the roomlike and airy tomb and he was treated there by his friends. When he got recovered from his injuries he moved out, met his friends, ate and drank with them, showed them their wounds and finally from Galilee alongwith Mary and other trusted friends migrated to Kashmir , India. There he lived upto the age of 120 years as per one tradition. He died there peacefully and respectfully and was buried in Sirinagar Kashmir.His buriel tomb is there and known to the people.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

What is the best for Allah to help his messenger?

Hi

That could be observed from the following verses in Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 12: Yusuf

[12:110] And We sent not before thee (i.e. Muhammad) as Messengers any but men to whom We sent revelation, from among the people of the towns. Have they not then travelled in the earth so that they should see what was the end of those before them? And surely, the abode of the Hereafter is better for those who fear Allah. Will you not then use you understanding?
[12:111] And when the Messengers despaired of the disbelievers and the disbelievers were convinced that they had been told only lies, Our help came to the Messengers, and then were saved those whom We please. And Our chastisement cannot be averted from the sinful people.
[12:112] Assuredly, in their narrative is a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a thing that has been forged, but a fulfilment of that which is before it and a detail exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy to people who believe.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=12&verse=109

The Quranic verses are very clear, and accordingly, Muhammad was a ProphetMessenger and GodAllahYHWH has sent before Muhammad only men as MessengersProphets. GodAllahYHWH helped his ProphetMessenger and saved their life.

You could differ with me, no compulsion, but there is no confusion.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Just to refresh the thread.

Thanks

 

[NDfan]

Hi

Just to refresh the thread.

Thanks

paarsurrey I have a few questions for you.

1. Muslims have always claimed that we Christians corrupted the original Bible. Now given the Bible didn’t come into it’s form with the accepted canonical books and letters until 400ad, how do you reconcile that it was corrupted after that?? The mauscripts that make up the Bible have been dated as far back as 42ad for a parchment of Mark’s Gospel. Of the 27,000+ manuscripts that exist worldwide, there are only literally 2000 textual differences across all manuscipts. The textual differences never altered the meaning of the verses that differed. It’s like saying I ran to the store, or I walked to the store. The bottom line is I went to the store.

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls gave us further confirmation that the manuscripts currently held matched almost perfectly.

If the manuscripts were so corrupted then how is it they match so well. When did the corruption take place? And can you show me the original Bible that can demonstrate these proposed corruptions. Coming from a Roman Catholic background but also being a skeptic, I’ve always found it pretty credible that we have what these gentlemen wrote.

1. Given that Thomas lived in India in his quest to further the Gospel of Jesus there, how do you reconcile that he never reports travelling with Jesus? Also why would Thomas preach the crucifixion of Jesus in India when as you claim Jesus was there alive and well?

PEACE

 

[paarsurrey]

I’ve always found it pretty credible that we have what these gentlemen wrote.

Hi

The anonymous Gosples, named after persons who never wrote them have created wedge between the Jesus and his concepts and the followers of Paul that clearly speak that there are certain interpolations done by Paul to obscure the things, in my opinion.

I think that helps

Thanks

 

[NDfan]

Hi

The anonymous Gosples, named after persons who never wrote them have created wedge between the Jesus and his concepts and the followers of Paul that clearly speak that there are certain interpolations done by Paul to obscure the things, in my opinion.

I think that helps

Thanks

You’re making an assumption that the Gospels were not written by the names of the people Christianity has put forth. In order to disprove this you need to show us the originals so that a clear distinction can be made between what is fact and what may be fiction. If an original cannot be produced then all we have is speculation.

Aside from speculation Christians have a strong foundation to believe that at least The Gospel of John was written by the Apostle John himself. The work does in fact contain the statement of a man named John as taking credit and is further affirmed by Irenaeus who was a student of Polycarp. Polycarp in turn was tutored by the Apostle John himself. What additional proof would you require?

With regard to the interpolations done by Paul, can you please tell me which ones obscure any teachings of the 4 Gospels?

Thanks

PEACE

 

[Hisalone]

Hi

The anonymous Gosples, named after persons who never wrote them have created wedge between the Jesus and his concepts and the followers of Paul that clearly speak that there are certain interpolations done by Paul to obscure the things, in my opinion.

I think that helps

Thanks

Paarsurrey we know who wrote the Gospels. We have eyewitness accounts that Jesus was crucified, died and rose again.
What you have is an account written centuries after the fact by people that never even wrote it down.

 

[planten]

From NDfan:
Coming from a Roman Catholic background but also being a skeptic, I’ve always found it pretty credible that we have what these gentlemen wrote.

The men wrote down things. That is a major problem. It is the men wrote the book bible which was not revealed to them. They did it from their observation or memory or after hearing from some one.

Can such a book be very reliable revealed book? The question arises “Revealed to whom?” It cannot be the word of God or words of God. That is for sure…

 

[planten]

The bible of the christians is a narrative of the life of Jesus. That is all. Written about Jesus by the people who observed things (even that is doubtful). It is not from God. Jesus was from God but not the book that we see called bible. That is not from God. It is the writing of some men about the life history of Jesus. It is not revealed by God to any one nor did Jesus dictate it to any one. However, it is a good book describing the life of a man of God.

Please think over.

 

[LilyM]

Hi

So JesuYeshuaIssa had a God whom he called in the hour of need and to Him always he prayed for all his needs and in all his difficulties. I request my Catholic friends with due respect and humbleness to follow in footsteps of Jesus and none other and always remember praying to GodAllahYHWH as did Jesus.

Please don’t mind, I mean no disrespect to your faith.

Thanks

Jesus had a Father who was God - this doesn’t mean that Jesus wasn’t God as well. Of course He prayed to the Father and the Father alone - certainly He couldn’t very well pray to Himself even though He WAS God!

But His followers (such as Thomas) could pray to Jesus and worship Him as God, and they did so even while He was still on earth. Most importantly He said several times that He and the Father were ONE, literally, and He certainly allowed Thomas to worship Him as God without correcting him.

A doctor may talk to another doctor without anyone doubting that he himself is also a doctor, so why can’t the Second Person of the Trinity talk to the first?

 

[LilyM]

Hi

So JesuYeshuaIssa had a God whom he called in the hour of need and to Him always he prayed for all his needs and in all his difficulties. I request my Catholic friends with due respect and humbleness to follow in footsteps of Jesus and none other and always remember praying to GodAllahYHWH as did Jesus.

Please don’t mind, I mean no disrespect to your faith.

Thanks

Jesus has a Father who is God - this doesn’t mean that Jesus isn’t God as well. A doctor may talk to another doctor without anyone doubting that he himself is also a doctor, so why can’t the Second Person of the Trinity talk to the First without losing His Godly nature?

Of course He prayed to the Father - Father and Son had to communicate somehow, and for the sake of teaching the Apostles how to pray Jesus certainly did it out loud to set them a good example. What else would you expect? Jesus couldn’t very well pray to Himself even though He WAS God!

But His followers (such as Thomas) could pray to Jesus and worship Him as God, and they did so even while He was still on earth. Most importantly He said several times that He and the Father were one. No other so-called prophet before or since has claimed that they were actually one with God. And He certainly allowed Thomas to worship Him as God without correcting him.