Latin and Eastern devotions

[MarkosC]

That sounds really nice and I know there’s this wish to purge all the Eastern churches of Latinizations. But realistically, people love the devotions and there’s only so much purging you can do before you insult or hurt people.

Including yourself - I’ve seen an awful lot of elderly babushkas praying their Rosaries before and after the Divine Liturgy, and I’m not at all inclined to tell them their devotion is wrong or “alien”. If you want to, go ahead, but watch out for those canes.

This is a point that I’d like to jump off of to give a perspective on the OP.

“Devotions” in my definition are private prayers said by the faithful outside of participation in the Mass (even if it’s done during Mass ). I would assert that Latin Christianity has a strong tradition of this because the Mass for much of the medieval-Vatican II period was not participatory and especially because the Vespers/Matins were not part of daily parish life after roughly the widespread adoption of the tridentine Roman Missal.

In Byzantine practice, Vespers and Orthros/Matins are supposed to be done every day and prior to every Divine Liturgy. (the ideals set forth in the canons and parish reality are two different things). In particular, it’s quite clear that Vespers and Orthros/Matins were, to use the old Latin canonical terms, daily obligations for the faithful in the formative 4th century in Antioch and Constantinople (in the words of the Bishop St. John Chrystom of Constantinople). This means that a “good” Christian’s prayer life at the time included at least 1.5-2 hours of daily group prayer.

That’s plenty of devotion in my book, but is done differently. It also means no one is praying Rosaries or any other private devotion before Divine Liturgy (unless one wants to hear Orthros blaring on top of your private devotion )

Which side is “better” or which should be done is a question for pastors, not for me.

 

[Aramis]

There was actually a vacuum of 500 years after the Great Schism and before any of the unions. Surprisingly, this is when most of what we recognize as the faith is today developed and “finalized”, for the lack of a better term.

Most of the Byzantine rite liturgy and a large portion of the theology is between 400 and 1000; same for the Coptic… The Syrian liturgy is older still; documentable use of the DL of St. James goes back pre-300.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Most of the Byzantine rite liturgy and a large portion of the theology is between 400 and 1000; same for the Coptic… The Syrian liturgy is older still; documentable use of the DL of St. James goes back pre-300.

But there were many developments from 400AD until about 1200AD. The current form of the Divine Liturgy we have today can be traced back to 1200AD. This is according to the book on the Divine Liturgy by Fr. Lawrence Farley.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That sounds really nice and I know there’s this wish to purge all the Eastern churches of Latinizations. But realistically, people love the devotions and there’s only so much purging you can do before you insult or hurt people.

Including yourself - I’ve seen an awful lot of elderly babushkas praying their Rosaries before and after the Divine Liturgy, and I’m not at all inclined to tell them their devotion is wrong or “alien”. If you want to, go ahead, but watch out for those canes.

Like I said, it is not about being wrong. We had the same issues with our parish when trying to explain to some of our older parishioners why can’t we sing Lenten Hymns during Sundays of Lent. Their reactions was, “is it a sin to do so?” It is not about it being a sin or not. I hope people can stop being so absolutists, that if something can’t be done automatically assumes it is bad or evil. Is pepper bad? Is it evil? No. But you wouldn’t put pepper on a cake.

 

[Alfonsus]

This is a point that I’d like to jump off of to give a perspective on the OP.

“Devotions” in my definition are private prayers said by the faithful outside of participation in the Mass (even if it’s done during Mass ). I would assert that Latin Christianity has a strong tradition of this because the Mass for much of the medieval-Vatican II period was not participatory and especially because the Vespers/Matins were not part of daily parish life after roughly the widespread adoption of the tridentine Roman Missal.

In Byzantine practice, Vespers and Orthros/Matins are supposed to be done every day and prior to every Divine Liturgy. (the ideals set forth in the canons and parish reality are two different things). In particular, it’s quite clear that Vespers and Orthros/Matins were, to use the old Latin canonical terms, daily obligations for the faithful in the formative 4th century in Antioch and Constantinople (in the words of the Bishop St. John Chrystom of Constantinople). This means that a “good” Christian’s prayer life at the time included at least 1.5-2 hours of daily group prayer.

That’s plenty of devotion in my book, but is done differently. It also means no one is praying Rosaries or any other private devotion before Divine Liturgy (unless one wants to hear Orthros blaring on top of your private devotion )

Which side is “better” or which should be done is a question for pastors, not for me.

The first thing we need to talk about is this: “What is a devotion?”
MarkosC gave a definition which more or less can be used as starting point.

Thus, in the East, we found hymns, prayers, composed by the saints but never enter or became part of the Liturgy. Agni Parthene for instance. From Latin perspective, praying it, signing it, is an act of devotion.

Your choice of icon at home for instance, why buy this saint icon and not that one? Perhaps because you are “hooked” more to that particular saint. This too, an act of devotion from Latin perspective.

Other poster said something about lighting votive candles, pilgrimages, which is from Latin perspective are act of devotions.

But what are those called from Eastern perspective? What word will you use to describe pious acts of the faithful outside liturgical celebration?
So, what is devotion?

 

[MarkosC]

The first thing we need to talk about is this: “What is a devotion?”
MarkosC gave a definition which more or less can be used as starting point.

Thus, in the East, we found hymns, prayers, composed by the saints but never enter or became part of the Liturgy. Agni Parthene for instance. From Latin perspective, praying it, signing it, is an act of devotion.

Your choice of icon at home for instance, why buy this saint icon and not that one? Perhaps because you are “hooked” more to that particular saint. This too, an act of devotion from Latin perspective.

Other poster said something about lighting votive candles, pilgrimages, which is from Latin perspective are act of devotions.

But what are those called from Eastern perspective? What word will you use to describe pious acts of the faithful outside liturgical celebration?
So, what is devotion?

Two points:

I think what we’re talking about for devotions is a bit more than just lighting candles. I take it to mean semi-organized prayers to be said by the laity outside the liturgy with minimal supervision from a spiritual elder, as a form of daily prayer. E.g. the Rosary, the Miraculous Medal, the Little Office of the Mother of God + scapular, etc. Heck, even the Liturgy of the Hours in current Latin practice is oftentimes more like a private devotion, much to the lament of many liturgical scholars.

The closest equivalent that I can recall being seen in regular Orthodox spiritual counsels is assigning the Jesus prayer, but this becomes very personal and, at least in Greek practice, is very much an inside matter between the elder and his disciple.

Also, FYI, Agni Parthene is not remotely traditional (and I don’t mean this to say it’s bad). First, it’s structurally completely non-Byzantine. The text was composed by St. Nektarios IIRC in the 1920s, and was set to music I am told by a monk at Simonopetra in the 1960s. (see, not all 60s church music is bad!!! )

 

[BVMFatima]

Mark you are right on tract on what I asked. Do Eastern Catholics also honor the Miracalous Medal, brown scapular, sacred heart of Jesus, Our Lady of Fatima etc. If not what are some things that Eastern Catholics honor that we Latin Catholics do not. Is there a special apparation of the Virgin Mary that happened to a eastern Church etc. God Bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

Mark you are right on tract on what I asked. Do Eastern Catholics also honor the Miracalous Medal, brown scapular, sacred heart of Jesus, Our Lady of Fatima etc. If not what are some things that Eastern Catholics honor that we Latin Catholics do not. Is there a special apparation of the Virgin Mary that happened to a eastern Church etc. God Bless

None of those. Like I said, the concept of devotions in the East is much different than the West. There’d be devotions to saints, but only in the context of the greater life of prayer one has. There are no novenas, medals, scapulars, etc. If one is devoted to a saint, one will read more about the saint’s life and teachings and try to follow whatever the saint did. Devotion in the West are more of acts of piety.

 

[BVMFatima]

None of those. Like I said, the concept of devotions in the East is much different than the West. There’d be devotions to saints, but only in the context of the greater life of prayer one has. There are no novenas, medals, scapulars, etc. If one is devoted to a saint, one will read more about the saint’s life and teachings and try to follow whatever the saint did. Devotion in the West are more of acts of piety.

Oh okay that makes sense

 

[theistgal]

None of those. Like I said, the concept of devotions in the East is much different than the West. There’d be devotions to saints, but only in the context of the greater life of prayer one has. There are no novenas, medals, scapulars, etc. If one is devoted to a saint, one will read more about the saint’s life and teachings and try to follow whatever the saint did. Devotion in the West are more of acts of piety.

But you might also obtain an icon of the saint you’re devoted to, have it blessed and take it home for your icon corner. Eastern Christians have just as much need of the material things that constitute the kind of “devotions” the OP is talking about as Western Christians do; the materials are just different.

And once again - like it or not - Eastern Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox - most of them DO practice at least one of the devotionals you listed. I know - I run the gift shop at our Byzantine Catholic Church - the Rosaries are the hottest selling item along with the icons!

 

[Seamus_L]

BVM Fatima
Of the devotions you mentioned. It is not uncommon to find EC's from the Eastern European tradition, who are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima and the Sacred Heart. Icons of both can be found in several churches in North America. Among the Basilians you can find more than a few with a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I've also seen a number of icons of St Francis of Assisi and St Therese of Lisieux, and have heard Lourdes and LaSalette mentioned in homilies in the Chicago area. Blessed Paul Goydich the Ukrainian Bishop was also known to spend many hours in Eucharistic Adoration. And the rosary is still very common.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But you might also obtain an icon of the saint you’re devoted to, have it blessed and take it home for your icon corner. Eastern Christians have just as much need of the material things that constitute the kind of “devotions” the OP is talking about as Western Christians do; the materials are just different.

And once again - like it or not - Eastern Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox - most of them DO practice at least one of the devotionals you listed. I know - I run the gift shop at our Byzantine Catholic Church - the Rosaries are the hottest selling item along with the icons!

Again, it is not about right or wrong, good or bad. It is just not part of authentic Eastern spirituality. Yes, people do it. That shouldn’t justify it. We can go on a long list of sins people who go to Church do, does that justify those sins? Of course not. People can pursue acts of devotion privately, but if they are pursuing the fullness of a spirituality, whether East or West, they need to focus on one. Asceticism is a bigger call in the East than Devotions. And like I said, merely buying an icon and having it into your home isn’t Devotion. I have the images of the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart at my home from my RC days. It is still there today. That is not a devotions. I used to do the First Friday Mass every First Friday, THAT is a devotion.

 

[ConstantineTG]

BVM Fatima

                                 Of the devotions you mentioned. It is not uncommon to find EC's from the Eastern European tradition, who are devoted to Our Lady of Fatima and the Sacred Heart. Icons of both can be found in several churches in North America. Among the Basilians you can find more than a few with a devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I've also seen a number of icons of St Francis of Assisi and St Therese of Lisieux, and have heard Lourdes and LaSalette mentioned in homilies in the Chicago area. Blessed Paul Goydich the Ukrainian Bishop was also known to spend many hours in Eucharistic Adoration. And the rosary is still very common.

Basilians

 

[Seamus_L]

You find the Basilians funny ? I’ve probably spoken with a half dozen of them in my life. UGCC would be in trouble without them.

 

[theistgal]

Again, it is not about right or wrong, good or bad. It is just not part of authentic Eastern spirituality. Yes, people do it. That shouldn’t justify it.

Hmm, ok, re: your use of the term “authentic”: Who is the final authority who gets to decide what’s “authentic” when it comes to private devotions?

 

[BVMFatima]

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hmm, ok, re: your use of the term “authentic”: Who is the final authority who gets to decide what’s “authentic” when it comes to private devotions?

Traditions and teaching of the Fathers.

 

[BVMFatima]

Traditions and teaching of the Fathers.

true

 

[ConstantineTG]

true

I sorta got a whif of your original reply. I just want to say that there are many different traditions within the Church. The Catholic Church itself isn’t one Liturgical tradition, there are 6 distinct Rites. Each Rite has their own Tradition and spirituality from that Tradition. Again, it is not about one being heretical and the other being true. I actually treasure the variety in tradition because our human weakness doesn’t mean we get to appreciate the same tradition on the same level. Even the Orthodox are starting to incorporate other traditions such as the Western Rite. This is why I’m starting to reject the “two lung” theory. Each Tradition should be complete on its own and doesn’t need another “lung” to complete it. That is why I beleive one should follow one Tradition fully and understand it in its entirety.

 

[theistgal]

Traditions and teaching of the Fathers.

And who gets to decide what the correct interpretation of these are?

Not meaning to bait (so put away the ) - just pointing out that this is one of those topics where I’ve found you will never be able to pin down two Eastern Catholics (or Eastern Christians for that matter) with the exact same answer.

And FWIW I think that’s OK - it’s great to strive for the ideal of having two completely separate paths (the Eastern and the Western) but in reality, we all tend to stray onto each other’s path from time to time. As long as we’re all going in the same direction it should end up OK.