Latin and Eastern devotions

[ConstantineTG]

And who gets to decide what the correct interpretation of these are?

Not meaning to bait (so put away the ) - just pointing out that this is one of those topics where I’ve found you will never be able to pin down two Eastern Catholics (or Eastern Christians for that matter) with the exact same answer.

The Church of course and our present day teachers, again in context to the life of the Church, which is the teaching throughout the centuries by the Fathers of the Church. That is why the Church is built on discipleship, we learn by experience and from experience. No one can arbitrarily say, “do this, do that”. It has to be proven by tradition, that is the experience of the Church through the ages.

And FWIW I think that’s OK - it’s great to strive for the ideal of having two completely separate paths (the Eastern and the Western) but in reality, we all tend to stray onto each other’s path from time to time. As long as we’re all going in the same direction it should end up OK.

Of course, but we have to depend on people smarter than us to decide what works and how it works. We can’t just make stuff up ourselves, that is how we get people like Martin Luther (who by the way did try to use Orthodox teaching to refute Rome, only for the Patriarch of Antioch (if I remember correctly) telling him not to write to him again ). That is why we value our Monastics who fully live spiritual lives and show us the way.

 

[theistgal]

Of course, but we have to depend on people smarter than us to decide what works and how it works.

I don’t know if we’re talking past each other or what, but this is a very telling statement. Popular devotions of the sort the OP is talking about come UP from ordinary people. They aren’t dictated downwards from those who are “smarter than us”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t know if we’re talking past each other or what, but this is a very telling statement. Popular devotions of the sort the OP is talking about come UP from ordinary people. They aren’t dictated downwards from those who are “smarter than us”.

Devotions do come down from the monastics (or religious for you Latins out there )
The laity didn’t start the scapular or Divine Mercy or the Rosary. It came from a nun or a monk(brother). Of course these religious/monastics do adhere to a certain tradition and thus the spirituality of their devotions are in line with that tradition.

 

[theistgal]

Devotions do come down from the monastics (or religious for you Latins out there )
The laity didn’t start the scapular or Divine Mercy or the Rosary. It came from a nun or a monk(brother). Of course these religious/monastics do adhere to a certain tradition and thus the spirituality of their devotions are in line with that tradition.

Yes, like Sister Faustina, who incorporated the very Eastern “Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal” (aka the Trisagion) into her very Western devotion, “The Divine Mercy Chaplet”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, like Sister Faustina, who incorporated the very Eastern “Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal” (aka the Trisagion) into her very Western devotion, “The Divine Mercy Chaplet”.

But would you trust a lay “Liturgist” to just insert Eastern elements into the Mass?

This is what I am talking about people who know better (such as the good Sister) and everyday people like you and I.

 

[theistgal]

But would you trust a lay “Liturgist” to just insert Eastern elements into the Mass?

This is what I am talking about people who know better (such as the good Sister) and everyday people like you and I.

But my point is, this is a devotion which is approved by the Church, and it includes both Western and Eastern elements in the prayers, and seems to be quite popular with Eastern as well as Western Catholics.

And it wasn’t given to us from some smart people way up on high, it came from a humble nun in Poland.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But my point is, this is a devotion which is approved by the Church, and it includes both Western and Eastern elements in the prayers, and seems to be quite popular with Eastern as well as Western Catholics.

And it wasn’t given to us from some smart people way up on high, it came from a humble nun in Poland.

Yes, as a monastic she would now how to incorporate different elements into a tradition. The Trisagion is a prayer, and thus can be prayed in any which way. If you think about it, she used it as a Devotional prayer but in the East it is Liturgical. The Lord’s Prayer is prayed by all traditions. Tradition isn’t just the words to the prayer but how it is applied. The Divine Mercy is prayed to earn indulgences. The Trisagion is prayed in the East as part of worship. So even there the application, the spirituality, it totally different even if the words to the prayer is the same.

 

[theistgal]

Yes, as a monastic she would now how to incorporate different elements into a tradition. The Trisagion is a prayer, and thus can be prayed in any which way. If you think about it, she used it as a Devotional prayer but in the East it is Liturgical. The Lord’s Prayer is prayed by all traditions. Tradition isn’t just the words to the prayer but how it is applied. The Divine Mercy is prayed to earn indulgences. The Trisagion is prayed in the East as part of worship. So even there the application, the spirituality, it totally different even if the words to the prayer is the same.

“Uncle”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

“Uncle”.

Hahahah

Sorry, I know I am stubborn about stuff
But I think how I see things things now is a greater credit to each tradition. I used to believe in what Orientale Lumen said about East and West being complementary. Then I realized they are not. It is false to think that they are somewhat half a tradition. I think it is a huge disservice to the many saints from East and West over the life of the Church. St. Gregory Palamas lived 100% Byzantine. Do we really think he is lacking for not knowing the West? How about St. Dominic or St. Francis who are very Western? Are they lacking for not knowing the East? They became saints in their own tradition, I can’t see why we can’t do the same. If some monk can incorporate elements from another tradition into their own, God bless them and us who will be beneficiaries of it. But it is something I believe should be done with great care and a lot of prayer and contemplation. Also, if you look at the paths to salvation of East and West, they are somewhat different. The approach and mindset is different and that is why I said it is important that we do everything according to 1 tradition because it has to be consistent.

 

[BVMFatima]

Devotions do come down from the monastics (or religious for you Latins out there )
The laity didn’t start the scapular or Divine Mercy or the Rosary. It came from a nun or a monk(brother). Of course these religious/monastics do adhere to a certain tradition and thus the spirituality of their devotions are in line with that tradition.

1. The Rosary came from Our Lady herself.
2. The Divine Mercy Chaplet was given to Saint Faustina from our Lord.

So I wouldent say it " Came " from the Religious, but from Our Lady and our Lord through the religious

 

[ConstantineTG]

1. The Rosary came from Our Lady herself.
2. The Divine Mercy Chaplet was given to Saint Faustina from our Lord.

So I wouldent say it " Came " from the Religious, but from Our Lady and our Lord through the religious

They are still two monastics/religious whom such devotion was enacted upon. Why not a layperson? You can say that about everything in our faith ultimately coming from God, but it still has to go through these people who do their best and dedicate their entire lives to living the fullness of their spiritual tradition.

 

[Josephene]

Interesting topic …

Wonder what the early Church would have thought of the dichotomy though …seems the concept of the Banquet , where in persons and tradition do have the freedom in The Spirit , to follow their heart as long as that is in fidelity to The Church and Her traditions would seem to be what is important !

Thus, LIturgy is something that is reserved for those who are in charge of same , to make any needed modifications .

As far as the tradition of devotions, that of the Sations of The Cross possibly is the earliest such , started by the Bl.Mother herself , while in Jerusalem and then taken up to Ephesus ; meditating on the Passion of The Lord , in the company of The Mother , a powerful way , to repent , on behalf of many , to undo the enemy claims that have come into all our lives and family lines !

The Icon of Divine Mercy , such as this one -

faustina-message.com/ , another reminder for us of the need to repent, trusting in the goodness of God and ask for mercy , on behalf of the whole world ; the compassionate gaze of this icon ( and even the full size of the icon , unsure if there are any other such full size icons of our Lord ! ) would be what the early Church would have remembered and being in prayer , in front of the icon, like an experience in those times , when The Lord took his disciples for prayer !

The divine mercy prayers are not just a way to ‘get indulgences’ , unless that phrase means asking for mercy , on behalf of both the living and the deceased !

The Divine Mercy Sunday being given to The Church , on the Octave of Easter , which is also St.Thomas Sunday , in an iconic event of the Spirit tending The Church onto this higher summit wherein, in a world that grows smaller , our grasp of the interconnectedness of all , from the past as well , help us to also take in , the timeliness of the need and power of more deeply trusting in The Lord , so that we may also repent more deeply and thus allow His mercy , to take hold more deeply - this, esp. so , in the worship of The Liturgy worthily ; the revealed truths and Dogmas , also help us , in the same realms , esp. in helping us to repent well, of some of the pervasive evils of our times against which The Church ( alone ! ) has spoken clearly .

Thus , the experience of The Liturgy gets supplemented by the other gifts inThe Church , without making one afraid , that one is somehow being unfaithful to one’s own Patrimony and helping to invite in the Breath of The Spirit , powerfully, into the Whole Church , helping in repentance , on behlaf of all, for the joy of gratitude as well as the unity that comes with it !

True, for those who recognise that one’s table is already rich enough and thus can ignore what seems to be at the other end ( or is it the middle ! ) well , if that is what one is to do as per directives , that is understandably good and right too !

Peace !

 

[Celticnovice]

I think there can be a level of sharing in the private sector…There already is actually. I attend an Eastern parish exclusively now, but I still pray the Dominican Rosary (at home). I just feel blessed to have a access to Eastern/Western spirituality, and I feel that this is available to ALL Catholics.

I recently watched a video about an Anglican priest who to traveled to Egypt to participate on a three week retreat with Coptic monks at St. Antonys monastery. The thing that surprised me was the presence of western style icons/statues inside the caves/cells where these monks live!

 

[theistgal]

I think there can be a level of sharing in the private sector…

I agree, and that’s the main point I’ve been trying to make. No, these Western devotions should not be done publicly in an Eastern Catholic Church*. However, privately, one may do as one wishes and most E.C.'s do tend to follow their hearts in this matter.

• And even here, what do you do about, for example, the Romanian Catholics, who are indeed Eastern - they use the Divine Liturgy - but they also use Latin and practice devotions such as the Rosary? Are they “not Eastern enough”?

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I know it’s been some time since I’ve posted in these forums, but this thread has caught my interest. First I’d like to address the OP.

Latin Catholics have the Rosary, multiple chaplets, litanies, novenas, Eucharistic Adoration, etc., etc., etc. I know some of these exist in the East, but they are not native to the East and the hierarchs of the East (at least among the Byzantines) have called for these things to be removed from the public life of their Churches and for the laity to pursue a proper Eastern/Byzantine “private” spiritual formation.

The Byzantine East has the Jesus Prayer, the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos, Molebens (among the Slavs), Akathists, Paraklesis, etc., etc., etc.

As Constantine pointed out, however, in the East these things would be considered less “devotional” and more “para-liturgical.” The Eastern mindset has no concept of a purely private spirituality; a concept that didn’t arise in the West until the advent of the “devotio moderna” that took place in large part as a response to the fact that few could understand what was going on at the Mass when the Mass was strictly in Latin.

Obviously there can be some cross-polinization of the two traditions. Certainly there are Eastern Catholics the pray the Rosary, go to Eucharistic Adoration, etc., just as there are Roman Catholics who pray the Jesus Prayer or any of the other Eastern “devotions.” The question of whether or not there ought to be such a cross-polinization has already been brought up. Any solution is going to be sticky at best and is certainly not going to satisfy everyone.

On the one hand we have folks who want to abandon any form of cross-polinization, whether of the West by the East or of the East by the West. On the other hand we have folks who embrace this cross-polinization to the point of losing sight of their own authentic tradition and creating a sort of “tertium quid,” certainly not Latin, but definitely no longer Eastern/Byzantine. We can see this in such extreme examples as the Society of St. Josaphat that has entered communion with the SSPX.

Personally I believe that cross-polinization is inevitable in the global culture in which we live. That’s the nature of things, always has been. What needs to happen is that if/when we begin to adopt one another’s traditions, we need to adopt them in such a way that the traditions are assimilated into the tradition of our own particular Church, not replacing the authentic traditions of that Church. For example, the Rosary has obviously become a popular form of devotion to the Theotokos among many Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. This is certainly a good thing, but what about the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos (effectively the Byzantine Rosary)? This Rule actually predates the Rosary and there are some who speculate that the Dominican Rosary is actually an adaptation of this Rule (no, the Dominican Rosary was not given to St. Dominic by the Blessed Virgin, contrary to popular pious belief). In a case such as this the popularity of the Rosary among Eastern Catholics and Orthodox ought to be an opportunity for us to rediscover our own authentic patrimony and tradition.

Another example would be the introduction of the Stations of the Cross into Eastern devotion. Actually, having originated in Jerusalem the Stations of the Cross is about as “Eastern” a devotion as one can get. But how can this devotion, which has essentially become a Latin devotion, be absorbed into the Byzantine East? Well, strictly speaking it already has been. Sts. Ignatius Brianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse actually prayed the Stations of the Cross in private. I believe they had their own adaptation of it, and I’m pretty sure such an adaptation exists among Ukrainian Catholics. I would say pretty much what the hierarchs of our Eastern Churches have been saying in such cases; look to what the Orthodox are doing and follow suit as much as possible. Obviously the Stations of the Cross will not be making an appearance in the public liturgical life of the Eastern/Byzantine Churches any time soon, nor should it. But there are perfectly acceptable “Eastern” adaptations of such a devotion.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

• And even here, what do you do about, for example, the Romanian Catholics, who are indeed Eastern - they use the Divine Liturgy - but they also use Latin and practice devotions such as the Rosary? Are they “not Eastern enough”?

Rome along with the hierarchs of the Eastern Catholic Churches have said that it is indeed possible for Eastern Christians to “not be Eastern enough.” Hence the call of the Second Vatican Council, John Paul II, and numerous hierarchs of the Eastern Catholic Churches for Eastern Catholics to rediscover their authentic tradition patrimony.

This ideal, however, runs into problems in countries where folks are persecuted for being Eastern Catholic, and they proudly cling to certain Latin devotions and practices as “signs” of their union with the Church of Rome. Such was the case in Ukraine and much of the Slavic world right up until the reforms of Met. Andrew Sheptytsky. Even his reforms, however, led to some serious divisions within the UGCC. A similar situation exists today among Romanian Catholics in Romania who are severely persecuted for being Catholic. Clinging to Latin devotions and practices become a standard of pride in one’s communion with Rome. But such devotions certainly do not express the authentic Byzantine tradition.

 

[theistgal]

Just wanted to say I was thinking about this thread when our substitute cantor sang “Ave Maria” in Latin this morning!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Just wanted to say I was thinking about this thread when our substitute cantor sang “Ave Maria” in Latin this morning!

When did this take place? Great Incensation? During Communion? After final blessing?

Not that it matters per se - just curious …

 

[theistgal]

When did this take place? Great Incensation? During Communion? After final blessing?

Not that it matters per se - just curious …

As both the opening AND the closing hymns. Opening hymn: before the “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit”; closing: after final blessing.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

As both the opening AND the closing hymns. Opening hymn: before the “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit”; closing: after final blessing.

uch:

Well I hope what was chanted in between was in line with good Carpatho-Rusyn tradition