Latin (and Greek) Mass Parts

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CatholicHockey7

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Personally, I love hearing the Kyrie eleison, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei chanted in Latin (and Greek for the Kyrie). To me, they feel slightly more reverant (a lot more reverent in the case of the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei) than their English counterparts, and I also feel more connected to the rich history of our Church when the Kyrie is sung rather than just hearing “Lord, have mercy.”

Thoughts?
 
All that and more! Latin for the whole Mass! +1

Dignum et justum est!
 
Never really been a fan of liturgy in a language not spoken at coffee hour. You can (and should) have a traditional Mass in English.
 
I definitely prefer Greek and Latin chant in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

If I hear people speaking Spanish, I often think “What are they saying?” and listen closely. The same can be said for Latin. When things are said in an unfamiliar language, I believe we tend to focus more. It absolutely adds greater reverence to the liturgy.

This thread isn’t about restoring the Tridentine Mass to the OF, but I’ll say this anyway: the vernacular doesn’t unite or encourage “greater participation” of the laity. If anything, it divides. Here’s my experience:

My parish is located in the Midwest and is about half Hispanic and half white. We have two English Masses and one in Espanol. Old white people attend the Vigil, young white people attend Sunday morning, and all of the Hispanics attend Sunday afternoon. It’s as though we have two separate parishes. Neither ethnic group, despite HUGE attempts at integration, wants anything to do with the other. The Hispanics have their fundraisers. We have ours. They have their own Lenten services. We have ours. Our “bilingual” Masses are not well attended, because neither wants to hear the other’s language.

Cultural and linguistic differences would be trivial if we celebrated Holy Mass in Latin. There’d be no reason to have separate liturgies, and if we could start worshiping together, the other parish events would follow suit.

On a broader scale, if I attended an OF Mass in Zimbabwe, I’m willing to bet that it would barely resemble an American OF Mass. (how does that contribute to the universality of the Church?) Conversely, the Tridentine Mass would be relatively unchanged. No “cultural additions” or “organic liturgy” nonsense.

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When I talk about using the Greek and Latin setting, chant music, etc during the Ordinary Form, people usually roll their eyes and say things like “that belongs in a medieval basilica, not the 21st century” or “I don’t like that.” - the Holy Mass is and should be recognized as timeless. If we make things about what we like, does that not shift the focus off of Christ and on to us?

During the Kiss of Peace, everyone socializes. Our Lord is on the altar, and we turn our backs on Christ Himself! Most of the time, people are STILL high-fiving, fist bumping, and hugging during the Angus Dei! 😦

The more Latin (and Greek), the better!
 
corsair said:
I go to an EF Mass exclusively. Can’t get enough Latin. 🙂
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I’ve only been to one EF Mass, but it was primarily in English. It was a solemn Mass for All Souls. I’ve also been to a Novus Ordo Mass that was entirely in Latin with the priest ad orientum for the consecration, that was a lot of fun.
ProVobis said:
Latin and silence adds an awe of mystery to the Mass.
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I agree with this! I think we’ve gotten wrapped up in the idea of entertainment and trying to create energy. When we do that, we the Mass becomes all about us rather than being about God.

I have nothing against contemporary music at Mass, but I do think some places have taken it too far. Some things just shouldn’t be “improved.”
 
smead2942 said:
I definitely prefer Greek and Latin chant in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

If I hear people speaking Spanish, I often think “What are they saying?” and listen closely. The same can be said for Latin. When things are said in an unfamiliar language, I believe we tend to focus more. It absolutely adds greater reverence to the liturgy.

This thread isn’t about restoring the Tridentine Mass to the OF, but I’ll say this anyway: the vernacular doesn’t unite or encourage “greater participation” of the laity. If anything, it divides. Here’s my experience:

My parish is located in the Midwest and is about half Hispanic and half white. We have two English Masses and one in Espanol. Old white people attend the Vigil, young white people attend Sunday morning, and all of the Hispanics attend Sunday afternoon. It’s as though we have two separate parishes. Neither ethnic group, despite HUGE attempts at integration, wants anything to do with the other. The Hispanics have their fundraisers. We have ours. They have their own Lenten services. We have ours. Our “bilingual” Masses are not well attended, because neither wants to hear the other’s language.

Cultural and linguistic differences would be trivial if we celebrated Holy Mass in Latin. There’d be no reason to have separate liturgies, and if we could start worshiping together, the other parish events would follow suit.
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Living in California as long as I have, I’ve seen some of this too. We had an Ash Wednesday Mass on campus one year with the bishop, and it was supposed to be an English Mass. But what actually happened was one of the readings, the homily, and the Our Father were in Spanish. I felt very turned off from that Mass.

On the flip side I will say your experience of a split congregation, though certainly not uncommon, is not always the case. One of our parishes in my hometown has a lot of crossover between the Spanish and English speaking communities. The main difference between the two is the Spanish and Bilingual Masses incorporate Hispanic music, but that doesn’t seem to stop people from attending.
On a broader scale, if I attended an OF Mass in Zimbabwe, I’m willing to bet that it would barely resemble an American OF Mass. (how does that contribute to the universality of the Church?) Conversely, the Tridentine Mass would be relatively unchanged. No “cultural additions” or “organic liturgy” nonsense.
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I don’t have a problem with combining some of our local cultural identity where appropriate. There are somethings that obviously shouldn’t happen, but the universality of the Mass is ultimately about the Eucharist.
When I talk about using the Greek and Latin setting, chant music, etc during the Ordinary Form, people usually roll their eyes and say things like “that belongs in a medieval basilica, not the 21st century” or “I don’t like that.” - the Holy Mass is and should be recognized as timeless. If we make things about what we like, does that not shift the focus off of Christ and on to us?
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I see this, too. I just asked the priest at one of the parishes I go to if they’ve ever thought about using Latin more often in Mass. He said he tried it once and got a lot of pushback so he hasn’t tried it again. 😦
During the Kiss of Peace, everyone socializes. Our Lord is on the altar, and we turn our backs on Christ Himself! Most of the time, people are STILL high-fiving, fist bumping, and hugging during the Angus Dei! 😦
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Yeah, it’s not social hour. I like that proposal to move the Kiss of Peace to the beginning of Mass. Let people have a few minutes to walk around and greet each other and really form a community, then get the show on the road! I also think sometimes priests or choirs are trying too hard to keep a schedule and don’t give people enough time to really interact with more than the person right next to them.

I see that a lot at my home parish in Cali. I don’t blame them, we have a small parking lot and Masses at 730, 9, 1030, 12 and 530 on Sunday. The morning Masses need to get done on time so people can clear out of the parking lot for the next group.
 
wynd said:
I’m curious to know more about this. I thought the EF as currently allowed by Rome has to be celebrated in Latin.
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That’s what I thought, too. I don’t know exactly why it was in English. My friends who always go to that parish for the High Mass on Sundays told me, but it’s been a few months.

I think part of it was they were originally an Anglican/Episcopalian church which returned to full communion with Rome.

The really weird one was the night I went to Mass at a parish named St. Pius X and it was OF Mass in English. :eek: Totally expected a full Tridentine Mass, and when I walked in I knew right away because of where the altar was that it was going to be Novus Ordo.
 
CatholicHockey7 said:
but the universality of the Mass is ultimately about the Eucharist.
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It should be but in reality it isn’t. Not when half or very few of the congregation receives in one culture and virtually everyone receives in another. One might conclude that they have a different understanding of same.
 
CatholicHockey7 said:
I think part of it was they were originally an Anglican/Episcopalian church which returned to full communion with Rome.
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It probably wasn’t strictly speaking an EF Mass then, but rather an Anglican-use Mass that would be based on the Anglican order for the Mass, which does much more resemble our EF than our OF (if talking about the Book of Common Prayer, or missals derived from it). Some think that’s what the vernacular Mass could have been instead of the OF. I think using “old English” for the Mass and the hymnody would be beneficial to the spirit of the liturgy, much like Latin but probably better understood by most. Kids still read Shakespeare in school. Latin, not so much anymore…

I like the mix at our abbey. The Propers are chanted in Latin Gregorian chant, as is the Ordinary (with its touch of Greek 😛 ), following the order of the Graduale Romanum (that is, appropriate Mass setting for the appropriate day, feast, season, etc., and the Propers at their appointed times on the calendar). The rest is chanted in French plainchant (well, this Quebec after all…), including the readings, proclamation of the Gospel, etc. The only thing not chanted, is the homily.

I’ve also been to the OF entirely in Latin and ad orientem. That also works for me; however I’ve been singing Gregorian chant in a schola for 13 years so the Latin doesn’t frighten me.
 
CatholicHockey7 said:
I agree with this! I think we’ve gotten wrapped up in the idea of entertainment and trying to create energy. When we do that, we the Mass becomes all about us rather than being about God.

I have nothing against contemporary music at Mass, but I do think some places have taken it too far. Some things just shouldn’t be “improved.”
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I like alternative and pop/rock, but not in the liturgy. I think the sacred deserves sacred music, which is why I don’t like catchy happy-clappy feel-goody contemporary “Christian” music. Your comments on making everything entertaining are spot-on! I agree 100%. The Mass isn’t a display of our talents or taste, it’s the most holy event in the history of the universe. 👍
 
smead2942 said:
I like alternative and pop/rock, but not in the liturgy. I think the sacred deserves sacred music, which is why I don’t like catchy happy-clappy feel-goody contemporary “Christian” music. Your comments on making everything entertaining are spot-on! I agree 100%. The Mass isn’t a display of our talents or taste, it’s the most holy event in the history of the universe. 👍
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I’m not necessarily saying “happy-clappy feel-goody” music. There are some very contemplative and reverent contemporary songs which I think are absolutely appropriate (Jesse Manibusan’s “Open My Eyes” for example). At the same time, you won’t hear me advocating for 7eventh Time Down or Skillet during the Liturgy.

And exactly what is appropriate varies slightly with the liturgical season, too. Matt Maher’s “40 Days” is great right now, but I wouldn’t recommend it for Advent/Christmas any more than I would recommend “Away in a Manger” on Ash Wednesday.

At the end of the day the first question should always be, how does this draw us closer to love of Christ? Unfortunately the question seems to be, how can we make Mass fun and entertaining 😦
 
I’ll support the Vatican II documents. Which specifically called for the people to be able to make their responses at the appropriate points in the Mass where Latin was called for (Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc) and Greek (Kyrie) in Latin (or in Greek as the case might be).
 
CatholicHockey7 said:
I’m not necessarily saying “happy-clappy feel-goody” music. There are some very contemplative and reverent contemporary songs which I think are absolutely appropriate (Jesse Manibusan’s “Open My Eyes” for example). At the same time, you won’t hear me advocating for 7eventh Time Down or Skillet during the Liturgy.

And exactly what is appropriate varies slightly with the liturgical season, too. Matt Maher’s “40 Days” is great right now, but I wouldn’t recommend it for Advent/Christmas any more than I would recommend “Away in a Manger” on Ash Wednesday.

At the end of the day the first question should always be, how does this draw us closer to love of Christ? Unfortunately the question seems to be, how can we make Mass fun and entertaining 😦
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Thats just it. Most people don’t advocate the use of those songs because they draw them closer to Christ; rather, because they’re “fun” and “not boring”. :sad_yes:
 
smead2942 said:
Thats just it. Most people don’t advocate the use of those songs because they draw them closer to Christ; rather, because they’re “fun” and “not boring”. :sad_yes:
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As long as we’re clear that it’s not “all.” 👍
 
OraLabora said:
I’ve also been to the OF entirely in Latin and ad orientem. That also works for me; however I’ve been singing Gregorian chant in a schola for 13 years so the Latin doesn’t frighten me.
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I’ve never personally witnessed an ad orientem, Latin OF Mass. Got me thinking, though-- if you’re going to celebrate the OF ad orientem and in Latin… why not just have the EF?
 
smead2942 said:
I’ve never personally witnessed an ad orientem, Latin OF Mass. Got me thinking, though-- if you’re going to celebrate the OF ad orientem and in Latin… why not just have the EF?
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Good question, and the best answer I can think of is that the Tridentine Mass actually follows a different liturgical calendar including different readings for weekly/daily Mass.

There is also a matter of having enough trained ministers. In the High Mass of the EF, only validly ordained priests and deacons trained in that rite may serve as lectors, altar servers, and Eucharistic ministers.

Many priests today are not trained in the extraordinary rite, and even fewer deacons. Now if we went back to the EF exclusively this would no doubt change, but for now this is what we have.

So you can do the OF ad orientum with Latin because it’s the same rite in a different language. Basically the same as saying the Mass in Spanish instead of English.
 
CatholicHockey7 said:
Personally, I love hearing the Kyrie eleison, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei chanted in Latin (and Greek for the Kyrie). To me, they feel slightly more reverant (a lot more reverent in the case of the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei) than their English counterparts, and I also feel more connected to the rich history of our Church when the Kyrie is sung rather than just hearing “Lord, have mercy.”

Thoughts?
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The poll doesn’t have an option for “Other,” so I thought I’d post my thoughts here.

Ideally, I’d like to have Hebrew (Alleluia), Greek (Kyrie Eleison), Latin (Agnus Dei), and the vernacular in English, Spanish, and other languages, depending on the congregation.
Multicultural Mass: The People of God bringing their unique cultures and talents together to the Altar of God. 👍
 
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