Latin (and Greek) Mass Parts

[Cat]

Maybe Catholics want to preserve some form of their own identity?

Of course they do, and I think that’s great. Yes, the traditions should be preserved, and YES, there should be rituals that continue through the centuries.

What I’m saying is that the traditions that are preserved in the liturgy should not be based on feelings. The Church should make decisions about which traditions (small “t”) stay in the Mass based on the Holy Spirit’s guidance, not on feelings.

And I think it’s wise for all of us to keep in mind that feelings are not universal. You feel warm and worshipful when you hear Latin and chant. I feel nothing.

But it doesn’t matter. Although the Holy Father described the importance of feelings in the Mass, I think he missed the boat on this one, or perhaps he didn’t realize that the time was coming when the OF Mass would mean the end of many of the Church traditions (small “t”) and the inclusion of many new traditions.

 

[OraLabora]

Although the Holy Father described the importance of feelings in the Mass, I think he missed the boat on this one, or perhaps he didn’t realize that the time was coming when the OF Mass would mean the end of many of the Church traditions (small “t”) and the inclusion of many new traditions.

I don’t think he missed the boat. I think he is saying that the liturgy is meant to be felt or experience with all of one’s senses. That’s why we have music, the Word, vestments, sanctuary decorations, incense, architecture, the Eucharist and of course the many gestures in the Liturgy. They might not all be present at the same liturgy as the liturgy does call for a graduated degree of solemnity, but the Eucharist itself is always present (“O taste and see that the Lord is good”), the Word is always present, the architecture is always present…

Whatever liturgical changes take place through time, I’m pretty sure that it will continue to be felt with all the senses.

 

[ProVobis]

You feel warm and worshipful when you hear Latin and chant.

If that were true, I’d be hearing it 24/7, but that’s not the case. In fact, in the EF, you don’t actually hear that much Latin at all.

Seriously, I’ll stick with the wisdom and genius of the Church, the early fathers, and all the Popes since in preserving its documents, laws, liturgy, morals, and doctrines in a language which Cicero, whom JPII quoted, codified and the Church immortally Christianized. Who knows what would have happened had it just succumbed entirely to local mutable feel-good vernaculars from early on. Certainly the meanings would have been corrupted, just as much as most vernaculars, a long time ago.

 

[baliano]

I’m picking up a, well call it a vibe, in these posts that the Liturgy is all about “we, me, us, our” when it should be solely a reverence to God. Those “t” traditions that have been mentioned were not there to satisfy the aesthetic desires of the congregation, they were (are) signs of deep reverence, a reflection of the purpose of the Liturgy; hint, it’s not entertainment.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I’m picking up a, well call it a vibe, in these posts that the Liturgy is all about “we, me, us, our” when it should be solely a reverence to God. Those “t” traditions that have been mentioned were not there to satisfy the aesthetic desires of the congregation, they were (are) signs of deep reverence, a reflection of the purpose of the Liturgy; hint, it’s not entertainment.

I was just writing a post about that!

I agree it’s not about entertainment, but don’t you think a congregation, when possible, should have a Liturgy which is both faithful to the Church and reflects the unique personality of the community?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I was just writing a post about that!

I agree it’s not about entertainment, but don’t you think a congregation, when possible, should have a Liturgy which is both faithful to the Church and reflects the unique personality of the community?

But isn’t a community kind of fluid by nature?

The ‘unique personality’ of a parish in the 1980s in a mid-size city might be COMPLETELY different from that very same parish 30 years later, but you’ll probably find the same liturgy being done today that was done ‘then’. . . and 30 years from now, there will be a different personality still. (I pick 30 years but it could also be quite likely to have big differences in as few as 5-10 years).

 

[TimothyH]

I’m picking up a, well call it a vibe, in these posts that the Liturgy is all about “we, me, us, our” when it should be solely a reverence to God. Those “t” traditions that have been mentioned were not there to satisfy the aesthetic desires of the congregation, they were (are) signs of deep reverence, a reflection of the purpose of the Liturgy; hint, it’s not entertainment.

It is not solely a reverence to God. No, it is not entertainment but it is not wrong to want benefit from it. God doesn’t need worship. He gave us worship because worshiping him is good for us.

-Tim-

 

[CatholicHockey7]

But isn’t a community kind of fluid by nature?

The ‘unique personality’ of a parish in the 1980s in a mid-size city might be COMPLETELY different from that very same parish 30 years later, but you’ll probably find the same liturgy being done today that was done ‘then’. . . and 30 years from now, there will be a different personality still. (I pick 30 years but it could also be quite likely to have big differences in as few as 5-10 years).

It might be different, and it might be the same. Either way, it’s on the community, under the guidance of the priest and local bishop, to determine what they want their Mass to look like. Obviously some parts are going to be the same no matter where you go, and it should be that way because the Mass is the universal celebration of the Church. But that doesn’t mean local communities cannot make decisions on certain aspects where there is an advantage to the community.

 

[Bran_Stark]

My preferred liturgical language is Elizabethan English. But if I can’t have that, I would rather have Latin than modern English.

First choice:

Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of hosts,
heaven and earth are full of thy glory:
Glory be to thee, O Lord most High.
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Second choice:

Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua.
Hosanna in excelsis.
Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.
Hosanna in excelsis.

Third choice:

Holy, holy, holy Lord God of hosts,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

 

[GangGreen]

I go to an EF Mass exclusively. Can’t get enough Latin.

This. I rarely attend NO these days. I only do if I have no other choice. I also pray as much as I can in Latin… Rosary (both languages), Divine Office, any Latin prayers that I happen to know. I love the language and how it connects us with the history of the Church. I also desire to learn it more, so using it often is a priority.

 

[Denise1957]

The Dominican parish that I attend (OF) has been increasing its use of Latin, at least for Lent, at one of its five Masses on Sunday. The Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and even Pater Noster are all chanted in Latin by the choir. The Kyrie is of course in Greek. My hope is that the parish is going to introduce the Dominican Rite (the Dominican version of the TLM) one of these days, on a regular basis. One can hope!

 

[Brendan]

Actually, the Catholic Church doesn’t. There are plenty of communities, particularly the parishes with a good-sized African-American community, that have Gospel choirs and liturgical movement. Case in point: The Basilica of St Mary of the Immaculate Conception in Norfolk, VA is the only African American basilica in the country. youtube.com/watch?v=ajK63_p-gQ0

But just because the parish is African in heritage does not rule out the use of Latin or Greek

youtube.com/watch?v=wgoNdokLSa8

 

[ProVobis]

My preferred liturgical language is Elizabethan English.

Out of curiosity I looked up the difference between Shakespearean English and Elizabethan English and found this interesting site.

shanleyworld.com/ShanleyWorld/Shakespeare_files/Elizabethan%20English%20and%20Shakespearean%20Vocabulary.pdf

 

[janeway529]

But just because the parish is African in heritage does not rule out the use of Latin or Greek

youtube.com/watch?v=wgoNdokLSa8

African is NOT the same as African-American, in the same way Americans are not the same as the British. They are different, distinct cultures and both have organic origins.

Skip to about 23:50 to view the catechesis on Gospel. new.livestream.com/randomhouzeproductions/recongress2013/videos/12439855

 

[dreamer29]

I definitely prefer Greek and Latin chant in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

During the Kiss of Peace, everyone socializes. Our Lord is on the altar, and we turn our backs on Christ Himself! Most of the time, people are STILL high-fiving, fist bumping, and hugging during the Angus Dei!

The more Latin (and Greek), the better!

 

[ZellieFan]

I’ll support the Vatican II documents. Which specifically called for the people to be able to make their responses at the appropriate points in the Mass where Latin was called for (Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc) and Greek (Kyrie) in Latin (or in Greek as the case might be).

This is my preference: a Novus Ordo with the Latin/Greek responses. I attend the TLM as well but I do like mass in the vernacular.

 

[InNomineDomini]

I love for there to be a mix between the vernacular, and certain parts being in Latin.

… and also, some Latin hymns like Ave Verum Corpus Natum coupled with vernacular hymns are just fine by me.