Latin and vernacular are both languages used by the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter Spyridon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Saxum said:
Any sources to back up your assertion?
Click to expand...
Either would be slapped down PDQ if they were to state that the EF is in any way more valid than the OF. Are you aware of any statement of theirs that says that the OF is less valid than the EF?
 
AndrewAxland said:
Are you aware of any statement of theirs that says that the OF is less valid than the EF?
Click to expand...
This has nothing at all to do with my comments on organic development. You’re changing the subject to one that I’m not going to discuss.
 
Saxum said:
This has nothing at all to do with my comments on organic development.
Click to expand...
Then read the quote you took from my post in the context in which it was made, rather the the one you would like it to have been made.
 
Saxum said:
This has nothing at all to do with my comments on organic development.
Click to expand...
What significance does “organic” vs “revolutionary” have in the context of liturgical development, in your opinion?
 
TheOldColonel said:
Besides this, there’s certainly nothing special about Latin. Yet, some, these days, speak of it as if it is somehow superior or magical.
Click to expand...
What is superior or at least magical about it, is the enormous patrimony of Gregorian and other chant forms that the Church has accumulated since the time of at least St. Ambrose (late 4th century). Fortunately the Church has preserved most of it, at least that of the Gregorian and Ambrosian traditions, wth a smattering of Mozarabic and others, or Gregorian influenced by those.

For the Mass, those are codified into the 1974 Graduale Romanum which is adapted to the Ordinary Form Mass. It is my great fortune to live near, and be an oblate of, a monastery that uses the Graduale for the Mass,

There are also numerous antiphonaries for the Divine Office in Gregorian chant. The monastic one, the first volume released in 2005, is an update (and not such a great one alas) of the 1934 Monastic Antiphonary. On the Roman side, the first two volumes of the Roman antiphonary (the hymnal, and Vespers of Sundays, feasts and solemnities) came out in 2010. For the missing bits, people tend to use the Monastic. In 2008, the Communauté Saint Martin in France released an excellent diurnal antiphonary for their own use, for the current Liturgy of the Hours, in Latin with the French side-by-side with the Latin. It is licit to use outside their community as approved by the Vatican.

I also take pride in participating in the preservation of chant in a small way as a chorister in a Gregorian schola and member of the Gregorian Institute of Canada.
Saxum said:
Organic = slow, incremental development in response to need. This is much different from creating something from scratch. In other words, one approach is conservative; the other is revolutionary.
Click to expand...
There is plenty of evidence of non-organic change in the liturgy throughout the Church’s history. A couple that come to mind is the wholesale abandonment of many rites at Trent; perhaps the Tridentine rite was based on a gradual development, but for communities that saw their familiar rites yanked out from under them after Trent, it could not have been seen as anything other than traumatic.

Another is the wholesale revision of the Divine Office by Pius X as recently as the early 20th century, changes that set many precedents for the current Liturgy of the Hours.
 
Last edited:
It’s debatable if Ciceronean Latin was ever a vernacular. The grammar and vocabulary held up for 2500 years precisely because it wasn’t commonly spoken and not vulnerable to morphism and such.

On the other hand Vulgar Latin became the grandfather of today’s Romance languages and much of English in fact, though English is a Germanic tongue.
 
Last edited:
ProVobis said:
It’s debatable if Ciceronean Latin was ever a vernacular. The grammar and vocabulary held up for 2500 years precisely because it wasn’t commonly spoken and not vulnerable to morphism and such.
Click to expand...
500 years from now, there will probably be a US english derived language, a British english derived language–and a whole lot of commerce done in late 20th century US english which even the US learns as a second language.

🙂

hawk
 
What about Mandarin and Spanish? There are supposedly many more Masses said in Spanish than any other language.

Commerce may be done in English but it should incorporate the metric systemIMO.
 
Last edited:
ProVobis said:
What about Mandarin and Spanish? There are supposedly many more Masses said in Spanish than any other language.
Click to expand...
Masses aren’t commerce . . . but the mos tbeing in spanish wouldn’t surprise me. Mandarin would be of limited use outside china.

While more people speak Mandarin as a first language, far more people speak English than mandarin.
Commerce may be done in English but it should incorporate the metric systemIMO.
Click to expand...
For those that need it, it already does–but keep it away from my beer!

:roll_eyes:🤨😂

hawk
 
As far as I know, St. Pope John XXIII and I have never had a disagreement. So, relax. All is well.
 
I’ve only been attending the TLM again for a couple of months now, and not every week, due to distance. Tonight I participated in beautiful Complines, in Latin, for the first time, ever and though I got lost in parts my Latin is already good enough to find my place again fairly quickly.
The whole thing is sung, and everybody sings.

I don’t get why people expect assisting at the TLM to be easy and undemanding like the OF. It’s work, friends! Americans are very lazy when it comes to learning other languages. And, just “reading along” in the TLM is entirely the wrong attitude.

Sad how some people will put strong effort in during the week, but want to be spoon fed in worship. So they try the TLM once or twice, then give up and whine about it.
 
Last edited:
I knew you were the one who created it by the title alone.
 
I think the point is for you to participate interiorly as opposed to the vocal part of the OF Form.
 
I kind of like Latin it just has a nice way of expressing itself in a way that I like.
 
I have to say that I honestly don’t care what the “universal Christian language” is.
I like Latin okay because I studied it in school and have nice memories of the class, the nun who taught it, and our Latin Club.
But I’ll go hear a Mass in any language if I simply want to attend Mass. I go to what is available.
Arguing about what the “universal Christian language” is may be of interest to some folks, but to me it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other, just like all the discussions about what music is right for Church or which way does the priest face.
Jesus is up there and that’s all that’s important.
 
Saxum said:
The apostolic doctrines are written in Latin tomes.
Click to expand...
Don’t you mean Greek?

The legal documents of the First Nicene Council were in Latin, but the doctrinal formulations were in Greek.
 
I beloeve you can find a TLM in most major cities, certainly in the western world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top