Latin apologetics on IC is lacking

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mardukm

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Dear Latin brethren,

I have read many Latin apologetics materials on the IC and/or Mary’s sinlessness and there is invariably one thing missing from your rhetoric. Your apologetics always focus on the abundance of Grace Mary possessed from the first moment of her existence, but you just as often neglect a very important facet of the economy of salvation - free will.

MARY WAS NOT PRESERVED FROM SIN BY GRACE ALONE, BUT BY MARY’S COOPERATION WITH GRACE.

I’m sure many will think, “that’s just a given, and it hardly needs to be said.” I am here to tell you as a non-Latin that it does indeed need to be said, and more loudly and more often.

Many Orthodox reject the IC due to this very matter. If you are concerned about unity with your Orthodox brethren, I beg you to be more aware of this deficiency in your apologetics.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I can remember coming to something of a similar conclusion about Mary’s cooperation when I was meditating on the annunciation. Mary is unique among all creation in that she is preserved from the stain of original sin, so that unlike any other person her will could be perfectly in tune with God’s plan for her. Yes, Mary could’ve said no at the annunciation, but where would that have left mankind? What would God’s next step have been if his most pure creation, through her own freewill, rejected God’s gift? Can you imagine another, sinful human at that point saying yes to God? Would it be possible for their freewill to be so God-centered they could say yes where Mary said no? I don’t think it would even be possible.

ChadS
 
mardukm said:
MARY WAS NOT PRESERVED FROM SIN BY GRACE ALONE, BUT BY MARY’S COOPERATION WITH GRACE.
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Help me think this through…I’m not sure the initial grace bestowed on her at conception included her cooperation. She was made a new Eve. Yes, in her life she cooperated with that grace, and the Church especially teaches that in her assent at the Annunciation. But you are saying she cooperated with grace at her conception?? Unless you are saying she was conceived immaculate in view of the cooperation God foresaw?
 
So she coopereated with God before she was conceived (i.e. before life began). How is that possible?

More importantly, when do you think human life began; do you believe life begins in the womb or once the baby is born? You may have a different view than Catholics.

Yes, I agree with you about her cooperation throughout her life to stay pure; but the teaching of Immaculate conception is looking at the moment when life begins.
 
Dear brother ChadS,
ChadS said:
I can remember coming to something of a similar conclusion about Mary’s cooperation when I was meditating on the annunciation. Mary is unique among all creation in that she is preserved from the stain of original sin, so that unlike any other person her will could be perfectly in tune with God’s plan for her. Yes, Mary could’ve said no at the annunciation, but where would that have left mankind? What would God’s next step have been if his most pure creation, through her own freewill, rejected God’s gift? Can you imagine another, sinful human at that point saying yes to God? Would it be possible for their freewill to be so God-centered they could say yes where Mary said no? I don’t think it would even be possible.
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👍

Blessings,
Marduk

ChadS
 
Dear brothers MarcoPolo and vwtaylor,

I’m not sure how your questions relate to my point. Perhaps I wasn’t too clear. The issue here is her not having any actual sin, which should have been clear when I stated “preserved from sin.”

When non-Catholics complain, “How can Mary be sinless?”, the typical Latin response is “she was full of grace which she received at her immaculate conception.”

I’ve never read a single Latin apologetic on the matter stating that Mary was sinless because she cooperated with the Grace she received at the IC.

Here’s a recent thread on the issue:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=518656. Look at all the Latin Catholic responses - even the answer given by a CA Apologist. Typically, no mention of cooperation with Grace.

Your focus on the Grace alone leads others astray, and provides unnecessary fodder for non-Catholics. I’ve met Latin Catholics who innocently think she could not sin, while - on the opposite end - there are non-Catholics who jump on this lack of mention of Mary’s cooperation with Grace as a sure sign that the dogma of the IC is a sure error as it deprives her of free will.

I beg all you Latin apologists to be more complete and concise in your rhetoric on the matter. It will save us non-Latins a lot of heartache trying to defend the IC to our Orthodox compatriots.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hmm, mardukm, have you been up on the latest apologetics on this topic? Appealing “kecharitomene” (“full of grace”) is not the only argument. We also use typology to show that Mary is the New Eve and the New Ark of the Covenant. Once one grasps these two types, Mary must be sinless.
 
vwtaylorii said:
So she coopereated with God before she was conceived (i.e. before life began). How is that possible?

More importantly, when do you think human life began; do you believe life begins in the womb or once the baby is born? You may have a different view than Catholics.

Yes, I agree with you about her cooperation throughout her life to stay pure; but the teaching of Immaculate conception is looking at the moment when life begins.
Click to expand...
It is not that Mary cooperated with God before she was conceived, but that God, who exists outside of space-time, and therefore knows the end from the beginning, knew before her conception (indeed, before the creation of the universe) that she would cooperate, and therefore could preserve her stainless from her conception.

DaveBj
 
mardukm said:
Dear brothers MarcoPolo and vwtaylor,

I’m not sure how your questions relate to my point. Perhaps I wasn’t too clear. The issue here is her not having any actual sin, which should have been clear when I stated “preserved from sin.”

When non-Catholics complain, “How can Mary be sinless?”, the typical Latin response is “she was full of grace which she received at her immaculate conception.”

I’ve never read a single Latin apologetic on the matter stating that Mary was sinless because she cooperated with the Grace she received at the IC.

Here’s a recent thread on the issue:forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=518656. Look at all the Latin Catholic responses - even the answer given by a CA Apologist. Typically, no mention of cooperation with Grace.

Your focus on the Grace alone leads others astray, and provides unnecessary fodder for non-Catholics. I’ve met Latin Catholics who innocently think she could not sin, while - on the opposite end - there are non-Catholics who jump on this lack of mention of Mary’s cooperation with Grace as a sure sign that the dogma of the IC is a sure error as it deprives her of free will.

I beg all you Latin apologists to be more complete and concise in your rhetoric on the matter. It will save us non-Latins a lot of heartache trying to defend the IC to our Orthodox compatriots.

Blessings,
Marduk
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I think I understand exactly what you mean. You aren’t denying that RC apologetics on the Greek “kecharitomene” has merit or that the Ark and New Eve typologies aren’t useful, but that too often our understanding of Mary ends there. It’s like we treat her like she was born the Mother of God and the years between her conception and the virgin birth are meaningless.

We forget that she would’ve had temptations and struggles like the rest of us. If Jesus was tempted wouldn’t Mary, who is not divine, have to undergo the same thing? Adam and Eve were created without original sin and free will, Mary was the same way – yet Adam & Eve sinned whereas Mary didn’t. The Catholic Church in no way teaches Mary was preserved from all temptations, but yet, even with free will, she was able to remain sinless throughout (according to tradition) her rather long life.

The point being is that we should point out is that Mary remained sinless because she actively did God’s will and conformed her will to God’s will in addition to being preserved from original sin. Maybe we do need to talk about that more because would be just as great a mystery as her being preserved from the stain of original sin.

ChadS
 
mardukm said:
Dear brothers MarcoPolo and vwtaylor,

I’m not sure how your questions relate to my point. Perhaps I wasn’t too clear. The issue here is her not having any actual sin, which should have been clear when I stated “preserved from sin.”

When non-Catholics complain, “How can Mary be sinless?”, the typical Latin response is “she was full of grace which she received at her immaculate conception.”
Click to expand...
I see, that is clearer. Yes, I agree she cooperated her whole life. I do think one sees this angle come out in Catholic apologetics when we talk about her giving her free assent at the Annunciation. If someone tells you Latin Catholics try to deprive her of free will, remind them of the Latin acceptance of her free assent at the Annunciation.

I will still keep your emphasis in mind in the future when this comes up. It is good to be reminded of these things. :o
 
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