Latin- as the languge of the people!

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In Louisiana we have a lot of languages, more then people know. Mostly it breaks down to English, French and a little Spanish but when linguist look closer, they see three completely different and not completely mutually inteligible dialect of English. There are Four dialects of French. There are at least two dialects of Spanish and then once we include the Italian speaking towns (two in number) and the Viet Namese speaking towns (five in number) you start to realize that just in a very small place with only 4 million people to begin with, there are too many languages to cover. Even in rural parts of Louisiana you are going to find Mass in at least four languages; English, French, Spanish and Viet Namese.

Now, the English speakers don’t want to learn French because Americans are taught to hate the French and their langauge. The French speakers don’t want to learn English because they still have a grudge over lots of abuses done to them by English speakers and they can point to the Louisiana Purchase treaty to easily say that they don’t have to learn English if they don’t want to. Unfortunatly, this creates a situation in the Catholic Church of having to find Priest who can offer Mass in multiple languages to meet the needs of the people, who in Louisiana at least, more then likely didn’t want to change from the Latin Mass to begin with. That is actually one of the big things I hear from Viet Namese speakers, that at least they understood what was going on at Mass before the changes.

Now, the Church has offered to say Mass in the language of the people and some of us here feel that they have given us a hard time about saying Mass in Latin since it isn’t the Language Of The People. But what if that changed??

What if a group of people got together and actively decided to adopt Latin as their new Native Language and abandon the langauge that they knew from before the way the Houma Tribe stopped speaking Muscogee and adopted French? It could be done. It wouldn’t need that many people. Just one small village of all Catholic families who all speak Latin.

I will go ahead and predict that if such a thing were to happen, that the Church would be overjoyed to offer the Latin Mass there. They would have no excuse to hide behind if they didn’t.

But, what do you say. Would you support Catholics going to live in a Latin speaking community? Would you join one?
 
Claudius said:
In Louisiana we have a lot of languages, more then people know. Mostly it breaks down to English, French and a little Spanish but when linguist look closer, they see three completely different and not completely mutually inteligible dialect of English. There are Four dialects of French. There are at least two dialects of Spanish and then once we include the Italian speaking towns (two in number) and the Viet Namese speaking towns (five in number) you start to realize that just in a very small place with only 4 million people to begin with, there are too many languages to cover. Even in rural parts of Louisiana you are going to find Mass in at least four languages; English, French, Spanish and Viet Namese.

Now, the English speakers don’t want to learn French because Americans are taught to hate the French and their langauge. The French speakers don’t want to learn English because they still have a grudge over lots of abuses done to them by English speakers and they can point to the Louisiana Purchase treaty to easily say that they don’t have to learn English if they don’t want to. Unfortunatly, this creates a situation in the Catholic Church of having to find Priest who can offer Mass in multiple languages to meet the needs of the people, who in Louisiana at least, more then likely didn’t want to change from the Latin Mass to begin with. That is actually one of the big things I hear from Viet Namese speakers, that at least they understood what was going on at Mass before the changes.

Now, the Church has offered to say Mass in the language of the people and some of us here feel that they have given us a hard time about saying Mass in Latin since it isn’t the Language Of The People. But what if that changed??

What if a group of people got together and actively decided to adopt Latin as their new Native Language and abandon the langauge that they knew from before the way the Houma Tribe stopped speaking Muscogee and adopted French? It could be done. It wouldn’t need that many people. Just one small village of all Catholic families who all speak Latin.

I will go ahead and predict that if such a thing were to happen, that the Church would be overjoyed to offer the Latin Mass there. They would have no excuse to hide behind if they didn’t.

But, what do you say. Would you support Catholics going to live in a Latin speaking community? Would you join one?
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What you speak of already exists, albeit on a very small scale. There are several Latinist associations in the world, probably the largest of which holds annual meetings in Finland. The people come from all over the world to get together and speak Latin. Many marriages result from these conventions, and since Latin is often the only common language, it becomes the language of the home and the language first passed onto the children. Therefore, there are quite a few people worldwide who speak Latin as a first language. I interviewed a few of them while working on my MA in Romance Linguistics.
 
As much as I would like to learn Latin, as well as Koinei Greek, and ancient Hebrew, from a practical sense it would make much more sense for me to learn Spanish, since I live in Houston, Texas, or Italian since my mother-in-law is an immigrant from Italy and my family goes there to visit every few years.

So learning conversational Latin is not high on my priority list.
 
I have heard several languages spoken, having grown up in a metropolitan area; and I think Latin (as I’ve heard it spoken in Mass on EWTN etc) is the most beautiful language I ever heard.

When I was in 5th grade our teacher taught us latin, and from that point on I was in love with the language. I remember being sad when our teacher said it was a ‘dead language’ now.

I hope that someday I will be able to attend a Tridentine Mass. I live in a rural area in Texas, and am a truck driver. Not only is it hard for me to get to Mass at all, but traveling (in my little off time) to the city to attend a Tridentine Mass is really hard to do.
 
BTW FUERZA, I think that is awesome that you have a MA in romance languages; which reminds me, I think the most beautiful language deriving from Latin is Romanian. I’ve known a few of people from this country, and hearing it spoken immediately caught my ear.
 
This is a cool idea. I am going to start learning Latin next semester, and I hope that I will be able to speak it with any friends that also happen to know it. As for a community of Latin speakers, I would join (“network” doesn’t seem to be a fitting word, btu that’s the idea) but I wouldn’t physically relocate in order to live with them. Getting in touch with those near me that have the same interest would be ideal.
 
Claudius? Are you living in the same state as me? There is one Vietnamese parish here in Baton Rouge and it is vibrant and it has inspired vocations desperately needed for our diocese. There are two Vietnamese parishes down in New Orleans. I think it is safe to say that priests here don’t need to know Vietnamese.

French and English? C’mon. Sure there are Masses celebrated in French. We celebrate a Mass in French at the cathedral here in Baton Rouge every year. Other parishes like down in Pierre Part might have a French Mass but you and I both know that the vast majority of Masses across southern Louisiana are celebrated in English.

Spanish? Yes, here in BR and down in NO.

Forty years ago, you could have gone anywhere from Lake Charles to Monroe to Gretna and you could have participated in the Mass no matter what language you spoke or your ethnicity.
In that regard Latin is a unifying force.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Claudius? Are you living in the same state as me? .
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Not anymore, an old girl named Katrina happened and I have been stranded in Japan ever since. I grew up in New Orleans and Houma (slightly more time in New Orleans though) and I can tell you we did in fact have Masses in Viet Namese. My father spoke fluent Viet Namese and would talk with the Viet Namese butcher for hours sometimes. My father sold him allagator meat and lizards. I believe the lizards were for shipping to Calafornia or something like that.

One of the last Masses that I went to before leaving the U.S. after Katrina was a Mass at the LSU Christ the King Church and it was in Viet Namese. Personally, I have always been proud of the fact that Viet Namese people were able to find a warm and welcoming home here in Louisiana. I have always said that Louisiana is the best state.

It is true that most Masses are done in English but it isn’t hard to find Mass in French or Viet Namese. I never heard of a Mass in Italian in New Orleans but considering the large number of people there who speak it I would actually be surprised if there never was one. I also know of equal numbers of Latin Masses Louisiana being offered by true Catholics and schismatic PX people. We even had a time when they were going to go down to Dulac of all places and offer Latin but it didn’t work out. I remember one Mass from when I was a teenager being offered at an Indian Pow Wow. I know what you are thinking and it actually wasn’t off the deep end, nothing crazy. It was offered in the French language that Houma people speak which means Cajun French with a lot of Muscogee vocabulary.

From my point of view though, it seemed like the Church was really going out of their way to make sure to offer Mass in the language of the people. Once I started learning Latin I really just got hooked and can probably speak it better then I do my French with was my first language. Living in Japan has actually given me great new opportunities to speak Latin and I would say my fluency rivals that of my English, which I did not speak until I was 11 years old but recieved all my education in.

Really though, Latin as the Langauge for inside Church is a good thing and should be preserved but if you really want to have Latin and take away all opposition to the Church not wanting to do Latin, forming a Latin only community I think will do the trick. Then it will be the Language of the People again.

By the way, I got the idea from the story I read about the Catholics in Egypt forming a small village and everyone deciding to speak only Coptic so that they didn’t have to hear Mass in Arabic. I looked into it and found out that several villages of Coptic speakers, Syriac speakers and Slavonic speakers had been started so that the people could have Mass in the Liturgical language. The information about Slavonic is hazy, it sounds like it might just be a monostary with a few families attached to it but I can’t really understand all the information. However, the information about the Coptic villages and the Syriac villages is accurate and verifiable and it seems this was done in resistance to Arabic Language.

From my point of view, Latin isn’t just a Language that I want the priest to know and to hear Mass in. It is a language that has found a permanant home in my heart. I use it to talk to my wife, who can not speak English, and I use it to pray and keep my diary. For me, it is my language. I go to Mass now in Japanese and I have no idea what so ever of what they are saying. I have picked up some Japanese just by living here but it will be a long time off before I understand the Mass here in Japanese. Many of the other foriegners feel the same way and they come from all over the world. We have ourselves a small little “Latin Club” because most of us know at least some Latin even if we speak in English most of the time. I know one man from Portugal here who can not speak English at all but can understand our Latin and can participate somewhat in the conversaitons. To meet our needs, the Church keeps talking about offering English Mass but can’t find any priest who can pronounce English sounds. I think Latin would be better but as the Church keeps telling us, “It just isn’t the language of the People”.

One side note, more and more people, including Japanese people are coming to our group to learn Latin. Most Japanese do not want to get rid of Mass in Japanese but say they would like to see Latin used for special occations. I think it will just take some time and some effort to finally get a Latin Mass here, yet at the same time, I keep thinking about going out to live on one of the smaller islands and starting a Latin only community. Then I am sure to get Mass in Latin, along with everything else.
 
Katrina changed a lot of things. I will pray for your return to our home. I’ve been here in Baton Rouge for the last 32 years. I want to move home but DW doesn’t.

The Vietnamese came around about the time I moved up here to Baton Rouge along with Cambodians. We’ve ordained several Vietnamese priests in my diocese since then.

DW and I were married at Christ the KIng back in 78. 😃

I have been having a discussion with Deacon Ed B on another thread. He’s from our area and, yes, I know that there were Cajun communities who spoke French but I know for sure that Dulac had Latin Mass when I was growing up.

We get French visitors on the river boats here in Baton Rouge. They stand during the consecration which is off-putting. We kneel.

Latin is a unifying force for HMC. No, I can’t speak Latin anymore than I can speak Spanish after six years. I can read Spanish fluently but don’t ask me to speak it.

Likewise, I can’t speak Latin but I do know what the words mean. A strange dichotomy. I can read a Spanish newspaper and understand. I have read Latin for well over 40 years. I can’t speak Latin anymore than I can speak Spanish. But I understand.
 
That’s it, I’m learning as soon as finals are over so I can understand what you people are saying.
 
All languages evolve, and if Latin became the table and street language of some community it is bound to evolve. Most likely into a unique alternative dialect, ultimately not really sounding like the Latin one hears in church.

And, like most of the more minor indigenous languages (minor in the sense of usage range, not relative worth) it would be in constant danger of extinction.

The only succcessful modern attempt at deliberately resurrecting an antique language I can think of would be Hebrew, although there may be others. Although I am not certain of the circumstances around that, it likely had been introduced through the kibbutzim (collective settlements) first, which were something of controled environments for decades.

Esperanto, a forced compilation, had a great deal of effort put into it, but most people I know are not familiar with it at all and many people have never heard of it. This despite a longtime effort and some real expense.

Another source to learn Latin is Rosetta Stone. It uses Italian voices (apparently) and classical pronunciation. That’s not really too bad, because I think we can assume the classical pronunciation was familiar to at least a portion of the clergy in the early church, ecclesiastical Latin being a rather late development.

Michael
 
Hesychios said:
Another source to learn Latin is Rosetta Stone. It uses Italian voices (apparently) and classical pronunciation. That’s not really too bad, because I think we can assume the classical pronunciation was familiar to at least a portion of the clergy in the early church, ecclesiastical Latin being a rather late development.

Michael
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I have looked at Rosetta Stone and I actually wasn’t impressed. They didn’t treat Latin like the other languages there but put in drawings of Romans in togas. I suppose that is good for some people but not for me. I also had a really hard time with the pronunciation. I speak Latin fluently but I could not really understand them. It would be great if we could all get our resources together and go the company that made Rosetta Stone and get them to make a version for Modern Latin the way it sounds in the Catholic Church. We could use it to teach the Liturgy and spawn a whole new generation of Latin speaking kids. The progam they use is very effective if only they had the kind of Latin that we speak. I don’t want to have my son learn Latin by learning how prayers to Jupiter or Venus go. Certainly, even if a Latin speaking Community is a far reach, we can get enough laity and priest who would want to work with a program like Rosetta Stone to learn Latin if it was Catholic Latin.

On a side note, I have done a lot of learning of other languages as well, especially Coptic and Greek and I must say that linguistically, the Catholic pronunciation of Latin seems to be be by far the most accurate for even the Ancient Romans if that is what you really want to go to. The way that Latin was transliterated into Slavonic and Syriac as well as Greek and Coptic and other languages testifies to the existance Latin being pronounced as the Church does it going back to the very begining. We have Latin words and names transliterated into Egyptian Heirogliphics centuries before Christ and we see that the Catholic has way more evidence for it then against it. At the very least you would have to conclude that if the so called Classical pronunciation really existed back then, it only did so side by side with the current Catholic pronunciation. The issue of the letter H not withstanding, Latin words really only make sense linguistically when you use the Catholic pronunciation.

On another note, why would we want to pronounce our Latin like pagans anyway assuming that a Change even did happen. Latin has grown and I consider it a modern language. It is what we speak in my home. I don’t know Japanese and my wife doesn’t know English nor French but we can sure speak Latin to one another. Ok, admitadly, I do speak some Japanese but not near enough to explain wooing my wife to marry me.

Sure, a Latin speaking community would of course always be in danger of dieing out. This is why we must all help each other, those of us that know Latin or want to learn Latin. There are good resources our there and we can be good resources for each other if we really decide to do it.

One thing that is interesting is that Sun Micro Systems is producing an office suite of computer programs that they will allow regular people to addapt to theirown Languages. I see no reason why we can’t make something like a Word program that is built for Latin speakers. We could offer spelling and grammar support as well. It would be great to use just to put the Vulgate into it and not see all the red lines of supposed misspellings.
 
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