latin help

[GIR]

I’m trying to brush up on my latin. I need some help grasping some of the concepts of advanced grammar. In order to understand it better, I wanted to know how you might translate the following sentances into latin.

It seems that the dog is sick.

I don’t like that Mary didn’t come yesterday.

I told you to wash your hands.

The man who gave her the flowers is a soldier.

I have nobody to talk to.

The dog has a toy to play with.

Against the wall there is a broom.

There are three persons in the Trinity.

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thanks. I’m really just trying to remember all the differnt ways of forming dependant clauses.

 

[Apollos]

I’m a bit sleepy but here’s a shot at it.

It seems that the dog is sick.

Videtur [quod] canis infirmus [infirma] est.

I don’t like that Mary didn’t come yesterday.

Non placet mihi quod Maria non heri veniebat.

I told you to wash your hands.

**Imperabat te ut ****manūs tuas **lavares.

The man who gave her the flowers is a soldier.

Vir miles est qui flores dabat ei.

I have nobody to talk to.

Nullus est quem colloqui.

The dog has a toy to play with.

Canis crepundias habet quem ludari.

Against the wall there is a broom.

Virga est contra murum. [Ecce virga contra murum.]

There are three persons in the Trinity.

**Tres ****sunt **personae in trinitate.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m a bit sleepy but here’s a shot at it.

It seems that the dog is sick.

Videtur [quod] canis infirmus [infirma] est.

I don’t like that Mary didn’t come yesterday.

Non placet mihi quod Maria non heri veniebat.

I told you to wash your hands.

**Imperabat te ut ****manūs tuas **lavares.

The man who gave her the flowers is a soldier.

Vir miles est qui flores dabat ei.

I have nobody to talk to.

Nullus est quem colloqui.

The dog has a toy to play with.

Canis crepundias habet quem ludari.

Against the wall there is a broom.

Virga est contra murum. [Ecce virga contra murum.]

There are three persons in the Trinity.

**Tres ****sunt **personae in trinitate.

That’s pretty good. Now I understand the OP.

 

[floresco]

I told you to wash your hands.

**Imperabat te ut ****manūs tuas **lavares.

The OP would probably like to see an example of infinitive in indirect speech with accusative subject. (sorry no macrons)

Dixi te manus tuas lavare.

 

[Apollos]

The OP would probably like to see an example of infinitive in indirect speech with accusative subject. (sorry no macrons)

Dixi te manus tuas lavare.

I included the macron not out of pedantic hypercorrectness, but to prevent ambiguity. It’s easy in Windows - I use the Character Map system tools accessory to generate the character and copy it into what I’m working on.

I hate out-of-context exercises - you never know what the question really has in mind, even if the OP said it was all about dependent clauses. I thought to myself, “How would I tell my kids to wash their hands?” I find myself apologizing to my students for some of the artificial and confusing exercises that sometimes come up, and I often say that nobody who grew up speaking Latin would ever say something like that, it’s just for the sake of exercise.

The other day there was an exercise where you were given the active, and you were supposed to give the passive, and then translate both. Three easy steps, but 3/4 of the kids hopelessly mangled the assignment for the simple reason that it’s ridiculously artificial. Up to this time we have been translating words, phrases, and sentences back and forth, and this makes perfect sense to anyone. But to suddenly follow an obscure program of flipping between forms and translations threw them for a loop.

I’m proud of them, actually, precisely because they do get confused by objectively silly assignments. It means they have developed an expectation of sensibleness on the part of the textbook (Henle).

 

[floresco]

I included the macron not out of pedantic hypercorrectness, but to prevent ambiguity. It’s easy in Windows - I use the Character Map system tools accessory to generate the character and copy it into what I’m working on.

I would have put in all the macrons if I had known how . . . out of pedantic hypercorrectness.

I often say that nobody who grew up speaking Latin would ever say something like that, it’s just for the sake of exercise.

This is a general comment, right? You’re not saying indirect speech with infinitive and accusative subject is that sort of construction, are you?

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m a bit sleepy but here’s a shot at it.

It seems that the dog is sick.

Videtur [quod] canis infirmus [infirma] est.

I don’t like that Mary didn’t come yesterday.

Non placet mihi quod Maria non heri veniebat.

I told you to wash your hands.

**Imperabat te ut ****manūs tuas **lavares.

The man who gave her the flowers is a soldier.

Vir miles est qui flores dabat ei.

I have nobody to talk to.

Nullus est quem colloqui.

The dog has a toy to play with.

Canis crepundias habet quem ludari.

Against the wall there is a broom.

Virga est contra murum. [Ecce virga contra murum.]

There are three persons in the Trinity.

**Tres ****sunt **personae in trinitate.

Those are pretty good. Allow me to suggest, though, that you’re overusing the imperfect tense in places where the perfect tense is almost certainly what was meant. E.g., “The man who gave her the flowers is a soldier” most likely refers to a specific bunch of flowers given at a specific time, not to a habit extended over a period time, so “dedit” works instead of “dabat.” “I told you to wash your hands” also presumably refers to one time, not in generally, so “Imperavi,” which by the way generally takes a dative (roughly, “I gave you an order…”). The same goes for “that Mary didn’t come yesterday.”

 

[Ockham]

I’m envious of those who know Latin. Could anyone provide a website or any other educational resources that teach it?

 

[floresco]

I’m envious of those who know Latin. Could anyone provide a website or any other educational resources that teach it?

Start with the “Latin Resources” sticky right here in the Traditional Catholicism sub-forum. (The sticky threads are listed at the top.) Every time I look there I think, “tee eff em is my hero.” :bowdown2:

 

[ProVobis]

The OP would probably like to see an example of infinitive in indirect speech with accusative subject. (sorry no macrons)

Dixi te manus tuas lavare.

I think a Roman may think both sentences are weird but probably could understand either.

 

[floresco]

I think a Roman may think both sentences are weird but probably could understand either.

Why do you think that? I had the impression that the infinitive with accusative subject construction was a common and normal way to express indirect speech.

 

[ProVobis]

Why do you think that? I had the impression that the infinitive with accusative subject construction was a common and normal way to express indirect speech.

You may be right. I’m only using my own personal experiences of literal translations to say such would sound weird to the Romans. For example, if we were to ask someone to translate “Lift up your hearts. We lift them up to the Lord” we normally wouldn’t translate it as “sursum corda, habemus ad Dominum” would we? Each language has its nuances and something is always lost in translations. But translation is still a good exercise, though it may seem like a sudoku puzzle to many.

 

[Apollos]

I would have put in all the macrons if I had known how . . . out of pedantic hypercorrectness.

I hate Latinists.

This is a general comment, right? You’re not saying indirect speech with infinitive and accusative subject is that sort of construction, are you?

It depends. I gave a recent example of strange exercises. I didn’t stick to what the OP said. How could a subject be accusative anyway?

 

[ProVobis]

I hate Latinists.

After the super job you did? You’re kidding, of course.

 

[Apollos]

After the super job you did? You’re kidding, of course.

Naturally. Thanks.

 

[MarkThompson]

How could a subject be accusative anyway?

Indirect discourse is generally translated in the form “Caesar said that Vercingetorix was brave,” but takes the Latin grammatical form “Caesar said Vercingetorix to have been brave.” So Vercingetorix winds up in the accusative and the verb goes into the infinitive, and you have Caesar dixit Vercingetorigem fortem esse (or fuisse if the sense was past-tense at the time Caesar spoke). Indirect discourse is generally chock-full of accusatives and infinitives; as a result it requires a lot more pronouns and repetition of subjects and can be quite difficult to follow.

 

[floresco]

Indirect discourse is generally translated in the form “Caesar said that Vercingetorix was brave,” but takes the Latin grammatical form “Caesar said Vercingetorix to have been brave.” So Vercingetorix winds up in the accusative and the verb goes into the infinitive, and you have Caesar dixit Vercingetorigem fortem esse (or fuisse if the sense was past-tense at the time Caesar spoke).

Also, if the indirect verb is in the future in relation to main verb it is expressed with a future infinitive i.e. future active participle + esse. So, using Mark’s example above, it would be: Caesar dixit Vercingetorigem fortem futurum esse which translates as “Caesar said that Vercingetorix would be brave.”

There are only a limited number of verbs that take this construction. They are verbs of speech, mental activity or sense perception. Some examples are: dico, nego, scio, credo, video

 

[floresco]

I hate Latinists.

It has nothing to do with being a Latinist. It’s because I have a basically annoying personality.

 

[Apollos]

Indirect discourse is generally translated in the form “Caesar said that Vercingetorix was brave,” but takes the Latin grammatical form “Caesar said Vercingetorix to have been brave.” So Vercingetorix winds up in the accusative and the verb goes into the infinitive, and you have Caesar dixit Vercingetorigem fortem esse (or fuisse if the sense was past-tense at the time Caesar spoke). Indirect discourse is generally chock-full of accusatives and infinitives; as a result it requires a lot more pronouns and repetition of subjects and can be quite difficult to follow.

I’m sorry - yes, of course you’re right. I was thinking that all subjects are nominative. I’m at the point now where accusative subjects in dependent clauses in indirect speech just come naturally and I have to actually think about it if I am going to see it.

They say you never learn the grammar of your own language until you learn a second.

You know, this got me thinking. Latin is usually taught as a textbook subject. I want to get to the level of expertise that I can teach it as a spoken language. For me, perhaps because my brain is wired differently, this would be much faster, and I would pick up on such subtleties almost without thinking about them.

 

[GIR]

I included the macron not out of pedantic hypercorrectness, but to prevent ambiguity. It’s easy in Windows - I use the Character Map system tools accessory to generate the character and copy it into what I’m working on.

I hate out-of-context exercises - you never know what the question really has in mind, even if the OP said it was all about dependent clauses. I thought to myself, “How would I tell my kids to wash their hands?” I find myself apologizing to my students for some of the artificial and confusing exercises that sometimes come up, and I often say that nobody who grew up speaking Latin would ever say something like that, it’s just for the sake of exercise.

The other day there was an exercise where you were given the active, and you were supposed to give the passive, and then translate both. Three easy steps, but 3/4 of the kids hopelessly mangled the assignment for the simple reason that it’s ridiculously artificial. Up to this time we have been translating words, phrases, and sentences back and forth, and this makes perfect sense to anyone. But to suddenly follow an obscure program of flipping between forms and translations threw them for a loop.

I’m proud of them, actually, precisely because they do get confused by objectively silly assignments. It means they have developed an expectation of sensibleness on the part of the textbook (Henle).

It’s even easier on a mac. Just press control+a and then the letter you want the macron over. I’m pretty sure you can do this even in the regular US layout, and if not, just go under settings and change the keyboard to US extended under language.