latin help

[floresco]

You know, this got me thinking. Latin is usually taught as a textbook subject. I want to get to the level of expertise that I can teach it as a spoken language. For me, perhaps because my brain is wired differently, this would be much faster, and I would pick up on such subtleties almost without thinking about them.

Perhaps you would be interested in the CENACULUM FAMILIÆ SANCTI HIERONYMI: brennus.bluedomino.com/Tampa_10/Cena2010.htm#english
ubi lingua Latina erit nobis sermo communis. Lingua Latina est enim etiam hodie lingua Ecclesiae viva ; clavis est quae thesaurum spiritualem integri aevi Christiani aperit. In hac hebdomada Latinae loquendae intelligendae opportunitatem habebimus singularem, dum amorem Dei Fidemque Catholicam alimus.

It is an annual event every summer. This year’s is just past and they don’t have information up for next year yet.

 

[MarkThompson]

You know, this got me thinking. Latin is usually taught as a textbook subject. I want to get to the level of expertise that I can teach it as a spoken language. For me, perhaps because my brain is wired differently, this would be much faster, and I would pick up on such subtleties almost without thinking about them.

If you’d like to hear lengthy Latin texts read by a master Church Latinist (in the Ecclesiastical pronunciation), I highly recommend these Audiolibri. Maybe that’ll give you a leg up.

 

[MarkThompson]

There are only a limited number of verbs that take this construction. They are verbs of speech, mental activity or sense perception. Some examples are: dico, nego, scio, credo, video

That’s not exactly true. In fact, if you read Caesar you’ll find extended passages, some running to a couple of pages, in indirect discourse because Caesar is reporting what a prisoner told him, or how an emissary pleaded for mercy, etc. Subsequent sentences just fall immediately into the indirect form without the need for further introductory indicative-tense verbs like “Et dixit…”. Personally, I find it a little unnerving to read pages of (practically) nothing but accusatives and infinitives, but as Apollos said, once you get the hang of it it comes easily enough.

 

[floresco]

That’s not exactly true.

I don’t see how what you wrote contradicts what I wrote. I’m not sure if you are misunderstanding me or I am misunderstanding you. At any rate, I am sure that you know more about Latin than I do, so I will assume that you are right.

 

[MarkThompson]

I don’t see how what you wrote contradicts what I wrote. I’m not sure if you are misunderstanding me or I am misunderstanding you. At any rate, I am sure that you know more about Latin than I do, so I will assume that you are right.

Well, consider for instance the passage from DBG I:xxx whose beginning I’ve highlighted here. The colon leads straight into indirect discourse; the text at that point is literally “the chiefs of the states assembled to congratulate Caesar: themselves to have perceived,” but more loosely “to congratulate Caesar: [they said] that they had perceived that …” Here’s a similar example from IV:vii.

So I think we’re on the same page, but I just wanted to clarify that indirect discourse need not always be preceded by an explicit verb of saying, replying, etc., and that it can continue into subsequent sentences without repetition of the cuing-words in a way that cannot be done in English: compare “Caesar said Vercingetorix to have been brave. Him to have fought in many battles,” which is an impossible construction for English but could take precisely that form in indirect discourse in Latin.

 

[floresco]

So I think we’re on the same page, but I just wanted to clarify that indirect discourse need not always be preceded by an explicit verb of saying, replying, etc., and that it can continue into subsequent sentences without repetition of the cuing-words in a way that cannot be done in English:

OK. I see what you are saying.

I’m not sure I ought to look the DBG passages. I’m starting a Caesar course in September and they might contain spoilers.

 

[MarkThompson]

OK. I see what you are saying.

I’m not sure I ought to look the DBG passages. I’m starting a Caesar course in September and they might contain spoilers.

Haha, then I won’t tell you how it turns out in the end. Although Caesar’s great, and since you’re taking a whole course on him you ought to read this preface to The Gate to Caesar, which is a book of simplified Caesar. I think you’ll find it (the preface) highly interesting.

 

[floresco]

Haha, then I won’t tell you how it turns out in the end. Although Caesar’s great, and since you’re taking a whole course on him you ought to read this preface to The Gate to Caesar, which is a book of simplified Caesar. I think you’ll find it (the preface) highly interesting.

The link is taking me to a google books site that says “no preview available”. I can’t see how to get at the preface. Such a tease you are.

 

[Apollos]

If you’d like to hear lengthy Latin texts read by a master Church Latinist (in the Ecclesiastical pronunciation), I highly recommend these Audiolibri. Maybe that’ll give you a leg up.

Eetsa beet tu … how shall I say … Eetalian fora my taste.

I find myself imposing an American accent on it when I speak it.

 

[MarkThompson]

The link is taking me to a google books site that says “no preview available”. I can’t see how to get at the preface. Such a tease you are.

Oh, really? The book’s in the public domain (it’s from 1891), so the thing ought to work. Well, you can also find the plain text here; scroll down to the section headed “PREFAOE” (there are a few OCR problems). It’s not that vital a read, but I thought it would give you a decent heads-up on what it’s like to read Caesar.

 

[MarkThompson]

Eetsa beet tu … how shall I say … Eetalian fora my taste.

I find myself imposing an American accent on it when I speak it.

Hmm, I like it precisely because it is so Italian (though the speaker was Spanish by birth). Personally I can’t stand Latin read with a thick American accent (think Father Z, bless his heart), and I try to do what is in my power to adopt an Italianate style. I do the same for the little Italian I speak and, mutatis mutandis, for Spanish. The checkout guy at the Mexican market the other day asked me if I was from Spain, so I guess it’s an effective tactic. And mind you, your speaker on these Audiolibri actually is a guy who could, from what I know, speak fluent conversational Latin, so in terms of developing the rhythms and patterns of fluid speech I think he’s rather a fine exemplar to emulate.

To each his own, but I can’t imagine why anyone would deliberately attempt to cultivate an American accent in a language like Latin.

 

[Apollos]

OK. I see what you are saying.

I’m not sure I ought to look the DBG passages. I’m starting a Caesar course in September and they might contain spoilers.

The Romans win in the end phthbth

 

[MarkThompson]

The Romans win in the end phthbth

De Bello Gallico in four sentences: Caesar brings the tribes to peace, i.e. conquers them. He then withdraws his legions into winter quarters. Caesar having departed, a brash leader and/or his brothers stir up a revolt among the Gaulish tribes. Rinse; repeat for eight books.

Sorry if that spoils it for anyone.

 

[Apollos]

Hmm, I like it precisely because it is so Italian (though the speaker was Spanish by birth). Personally I can’t stand Latin read with a thick American accent (think Father Z, bless his heart), and I try to do what is in my power to adopt an Italianate style. I do the same for the little Italian I speak and, mutatis mutandis, for Spanish. The checkout guy at the Mexican market the other day asked me if I was from Spain, so I guess it’s an effective tactic. And mind you, your speaker on these Audiolibri actually is a guy who could, from what I know, speak fluent conversational Latin, so in terms of developing the rhythms and patterns of fluid speech I think he’s rather a fine exemplar to emulate.

To each his own, but I can’t imagine why anyone would deliberately attempt to cultivate an American accent in a language like Latin.

Because speakers own the language. And I am an American. And it’s a dead language anyway. And because even Europeans speak it with their native accents.

Listening to Vallejo I can almost smell the dark musty hallways of an early 20th century Catholic seminary. However I can’t stand Greek with an American accent on top of the academic-reconstructed pronunciation. I start to smell the bright formaldehydey hallways of a brand new Evangelical seminary.

 

[floresco]

Oh, really? The book’s in the public domain (it’s from 1891), so the thing ought to work. Well, you can also find the plain text here; scroll down to the section headed “PREFAOE” (there are a few OCR problems). It’s not that vital a read, but I thought it would give you a decent heads-up on what it’s like to read Caesar.

Thank you, Mark. It was interesting and helpful. Although I am feeling a bit intimidated now.

Not to mention Apollos has spoiled it by telling me how it ends.

 

[Apollos]

De Bello Gallico in four sentences: Caesar brings the tribes to peace, i.e. conquers them. He then withdraws his legions into winter quarters. Caesar having departed, a brash leader and/or his brothers stir up a revolt among the Gaulish tribes. Rinse; repeat for eight books.

Sorry if that spoils it for anyone.

The Batley Townswomen’s Guild did a reenactment of this, under the direction of Miss Rita Fairbanks if I’m not mistaken.

 

[ProVobis]

You know, this got me thinking. Latin is usually taught as a textbook subject. I want to get to the level of expertise that I can teach it as a spoken language. For me, perhaps because my brain is wired differently, this would be much faster, and I would pick up on such subtleties almost without thinking about them.

I can relate to that. Last night I was watching a Polish TV show. Being bilingual I had little problem picking it up. But what basically happens is that you immerse yourself in a different culture and appreciate it for what it is. Forget trying to translate every thought, every idea, every nuance into English. That gets to be too tedious after a while.

Latin could be the same. One can only “translate” per omnia saecula saeculorum or *Dominus vobiscum *so many times before it becomes an established phrase in one’s mind. Think Latin!