Latin? In MY Mass?

[Cat]

I’ll take a chance and be honest, and hope that others on this thread will accept my comments, even if they personally don’t agree with them.

First of all, there are practical reasons why there is not a demand for Latin in the OF Mass.

I know that in the past (as recently as the 1970s), Latin was often offered and even required in high schools, including public schools, but it isn’t offered now in most high schools, and very few students are exposed to it. So it’s a question of lack of exposure and lack of interest.

I think the main reason why there is not a spirited demand for Latin in the Mass is that in the U.S., in general, in most circles of people, the learning of a foreign language (other than Spanish) is not considered useful or admirable, and most of us attempt to avoid this task which we perceive as unpleasant and difficult. We have way to much to do that is required of us to survive in the U.S., and we really don’t care to add on yet another task to our life list.

Learning a foreign language is one of those things that high school students do mainly because they are required to have two years of foreign language to be admitted into some colleges, so many students usually choose an easy language like Spanish, and they don’t really learn it, they just fulfil the college requirement.

We don’t value the accomplishment of mastering a foreign language. Yes, I know that many of YOU value this accomplishment, but I’m not talking about you! And I know that there are some children and teenagers who are fascinated by foreign languages and soak in as much of them as they can in their schools. One of my high school classmates was like this, and she managed to take two foreign languages in high school, and majored in Spanish in college.

But I’m not talking about these exceptions. I’m talking about the vast majority of people in the U.S., and Catholics are included in that group of “vast majority.” We just don’t like learning a foreign language, and we see no use in it other than getting into college or being able to say, “May I help you?” in Spanish to one of the many confused-looking immigrants who approaches us in our jobs.

Latin in particular is a hard-sell, as it is not used as a conversational language by any people group other than the Vatican in scholarly discussions.

But we don’t need to communicate to anyone in Latin. God understands all languages.

As for my personal feelings, which I believe are shared by others in the Church–I personally don’t “get” Latin in the Mass. To me personally, it’s frustrating because I don’t understand it, and I dislike having to “think twice” so to speak to translate the Latin into my heart language, which is English.

I can understand and sympathize with those who have an emotional attachment to it, but I personally don’t have that emotional attachment. I was born and raised Protestant, and I think quite a few Catholics in the U.S. are also converts, and they don’t have any emotional attachment to Latin either.

Interestingly, I have an emotional attachment to Christian rock music because it’s what I grew up with, and I love hearing such music at Mass and it speaks to my deepest soul and helps me to focus on God. But I know that many Catholics who grew up without Christian rock music find such music at Mass frustrating and unpleasant and horribly irreverent. Well, now you know how I feel about Latin in the Mass! I don’t get it, just like you don’t get rock music in the Mass. Funny thing, isn’t it, how human beings are all different.

**The sole reason why I am OK with Latin in the Mass is that the Church tells me I should be OK with it. In other words, I will obey Holy Mother Church. In other words, to me, Latin in the Mass is a “discipline” that I must submit to. **

I think others feel the same way, and to be honest, I don’t think you’ll find too many of these people posting in online forums. So my opinion will appear to be the minority opinion here on CAF, but I think that if you go out and about and ask real people in your parish, you’ll find that many people would go along with Latin in an OF Mass out of obedience. It really doesn’t do anything to enhance their Mass experience, but they’ll go along with it if the Church says so.

So it’s no wonder that Latin in the Mass doesn’t catch on. It’s a question of “obedience” to the Church vs. “enjoyment.” In the U.S., we are more likely to repeat a behavior that we enjoy rather than doing something out of obedience and duty. And as long as the priests have the option of not including Latin, they will choose to go for the enjoyment factor rather than forcing people to “obey.” They have to pay attention to their “bottom line,” because if their parish closes down due to lack of people and funds, Latin in the Mass won’t be an issue anymore.

 

[doanli]

The information is readily available on the internet and in countless books (like my own).

Pope Paul VI released Iubilate Deo back in the early 1970’s as the desired minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant for parish use in the Order of the Mass.

My parish, including my 12 year old son, doesn’t seem to have had any problem learning the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, and Sanctus in the past year–and we haven’t had any classes either!

Those fretting about this—what are they going to do next Advent when the revised Liturgy is introduced? (and they have to strike their breasts! Oh the humanity! )

 

[doanli]

Cat,

I LOVE the Garfield cartoon at the bottom!!!

 

[Joannm]

Latin in particular is a hard-sell, as it is not used as a conversational language by any people group other than the Vatican in scholarly discussions.

.

Actually they don’t use it in the Vatican either. Italian is the language spoken there, even in discussions. Also French and English. The only thing that is in Latin are documents.

 

[Cat]

Cat,

I LOVE the Garfield cartoon at the bottom!!!

Ain’t it the truth?!

Actually, on CAF, most people are fairly charitable.

 

[Cat]

Actually they don’t use it in the Vatican either. Italian is the language spoken there, even in discussions. Also French and English. The only thing that is in Latin are documents.

Thank you for clarifying that. I’ve gotten the impression from some people that Latin is still spoken at the official meetings of the Magisterium.

I don’t know if I’m just being picky here and I apologize if this is kind of muddy, but it seems to me that spoken and written languages are comprehended differently. E.g., often I can sit down and read a German poem or sentence because I took five years of German in high school and still remember enough of it to be able to translate something written. But I cannot listen to spoken German and understand any of it. Perhaps Latin is the same way–reading and studying a written Latin document is different from hearing it spoken or sung. ??

 

[malphono]

First of all, there are practical reasons why there is not a demand for Latin in the OF Mass.

I know that in the past (as recently as the 1970s), Latin was often offered and even required in high schools, including public schools, but it isn’t offered now in most high schools, and very few students are exposed to it. So it’s a question of lack of exposure and lack of interest.

Hebrew isn’t commonly offered either (never was), but I don’t hear very many Jews complaining. So too Arabic. So too Sanskrit. All three are “liturgical languages” for different faiths, yet the people are interested and seem to be able to learn enough of the language to manage their prayers.

 

[padreb]

The Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy was written in 1963.

One of the key elements that many fail to read is further down in the document which states;

So it was over the course of years, that the experiment in the use of the vernacular was seen by the Bishops as more successful than the attempts to retain Latin and so the Mass evolved completely into the use of the vernacular in most parishes across the world. This also kept with the spirit of the document which stated in the very beginning;

And so, the Mass evolved into what we have today and few parishes use Latin in their celebration of the Mass.

There has been a rise in the use of Latin, but its still in the minority.

Jim

This is not true. As someone who was there I can tell you it was 1 Sunday in Latin and the next Sunday in English. No transition, no experiment, just a total switch. Now there was some experiments with the translation into English but that was it. At least in the diocese where I was.

 

[padreb]

malphono

Well not from my experience. I recall the shift into the vernacular.

At first the parts where in Latin, but the people merely remained silent while the choir or cantor sang, as they always did before. As the parts were re-written into the vernacular, the people began to sing more and more.

Keep in mind that before Vatican II, the people didn’t sing at Mass, the choirs did the singing. The altar boys did the responses. So the mind set of singing was foreign, never mind singing Gregorian Chant.

The change to the vernacular happened because for the most part, it worked better and the Bishops saw it, and went with it.

.

Jim

I guess this also depends on where you were and what the makeup of the parish was. In the area I am most familiar with there were/are 3 major ethnic groups. Parishes tended to be very ethnic (and still are for the most part). The 3 groups were Irish, German and Italian. Even before the council and before the liturgical changes began the Irish parishes did not sing, and still don’t, to get these people to sing is like pulling teeth. The German parishes would raise the roof with their singing and the Italian parishes fell somewhere in between.

There is a book out there “Why Catholics can’t sing” I read it years ago, the authors premise is that the lack of singing in Catholic circles stems from the Irish hierarchy. ( For so long in Ireland mass was forbidden and was done in secret. This influenced the piety of the people and included mass with no music).

 

[vsedriver]

You don’t have to be fluent! I can’t believe how many times this canard shows up. No one is asking us to learn Latin. We’re being asked to learn the Latin responses of the Mass. That’s a very limited vocabulary! And the pronunciations don’t take long to learn. You can learn them in a day, or a week, or a month, depending on how much you care to practice it. It’s a lot easier than pronouncing English, I can tell you, where vowels and consonants shift in sound from word to word. (The proposed spelling “ghoti” for “fish” is a prime example of this – “gh” as in “tough”, “o” as in “women”, “ti” as in “nation”.)

When I started school, Mass was all in Latin. The only thing I understood was that I was supposed to be quiet in Church. Since I understood nothing of what was being said and only parroted the Latin answers, I can’t say I participated in the Mass at all but I did do a lot of daydreaming and admired the artwork. And to any non-Catholic visiting it was all so much mumbo jumbo.

I was in middle school when our parish made the switch to English. It was a breath of fresh air! Finally I understood what was being said and what it all means and I no longer daydreamed but could actively participate. I did take Latin in High School so I can discern the meaning of some words but I don’t think in Latin. If our brains aren’t engaged when we celebrate Mass then the language doesn’t matter anyway.

The Mass is not less Holy because it is in English. I have no objections to some of the old songs being sung in Latin. I can still parrot the words but I will read the English to understand what I’m saying and/or praying. As an adult who fully understands now what is going on during the Mass I would have no problem attending the occasional TLM but I will always prefer to worship in the language I think in.

 

[japhy]

The Mass is not less Holy because it is in English.

And I’m certainly not suggesting that.

I have no objections to some of the old songs being sung in Latin. I can still parrot the words but I will read the English to understand what I’m saying and/or praying.

But no one’s asking us to pray words that we don’t know. You know that after the Eucharistic Prayer comes the “Our Father”, no matter what language it’s prayed in. You know that at the end of the readings, the lector says “The Word of the Lord”, and you know the response is “Thanks be to God”, no matter what the language. You know what the priest is saying as he makes the Sign of the Cross at the beginning of Mass, whether he says the words in English or in Latin.

 

[vsedriver]

But no one’s asking us to pray words that we don’t know. You know that after the Eucharistic Prayer comes the “Our Father”, no matter what language it’s prayed in. You know that at the end of the readings, the lector says “The Word of the Lord”, and you know the response is “Thanks be to God”, no matter what the language. You know what the priest is saying as he makes the Sign of the Cross at the beginning of Mass, whether he says the words in English or in Latin.

I still find it distracting when it is in Latin and not English. It makes me feel one step removed, and out of step. I feel like I’m playing catch up instead of in the moment.

I don’t see any advantage to the Mass being in Latin but see great advantage to it being in the language of the people. I had the same reaction when I attended Mass in Italy. I had some college Italian, could barely follow opera so yes, I could get through the Mass in Italian but I was still out of sync and found it distracting. But since the majority of the people were Italians it made sense that the Mass was in their language.

At one time Latin was spoken everywhere and was in common usage. Even the uneducated would have learned some conversational Latin. But that is no longer true today. Words that can’t be understood can’t successfully convey a message no matter how historic and pretty they sound.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Latin is important as we all recognize it in the Mass universally. When someone says the Our Father in another language besides English, I don’t know and often times don’t even recognize it…but I know it and recognize it when they pray it in Latin. Same with the Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Gloria and the Gloria Patri. To learn these and know them does not take much effort.

 

[Monica4316]

Personally, I support using Latin in the Mass

 

[trish2009]

I am one of those older folks who grew up with the Latin Mass. We were never taught that there was a “Vengeful God”, we were taught that God was all loving, all merciful and all just. During the past 40 years or so the “all just” was what fell to the wayside. The fact that God is “all love and mercy” probably explains why so few people go to confession before receiving Holy Communion. Our parish church holds about 400 people at most of the Masses and about 5 or 6 people stand in line for Confession, yet everyone receives Communion. The Latin Mass was a very beautiful, reverent Mass with wonderful holy hymns that were sung by both the choir and the laity. It was truly uplifting and you left the church with the feeling you had witnessed a piece of Heaven. To this day I never leave an English Mass with that feeling.

If Latin is introduced in the New Missal, it would not be difficult to learn the new Latin phrases. This is supposed to be such an enlightened and well educated society, it is foolish to think one would have a difficult time learning a little Latin.

 

[trish2009]

When I started school, Mass was all in Latin. The only thing I understood was that I was supposed to be quiet in Church. Since I understood nothing of what was being said and only parroted the Latin answers, I can’t say I participated in the Mass at all but I did do a lot of daydreaming and admired the artwork. And to any non-Catholic visiting it was all so much mumbo jumbo.
.

It’s a shame no one bought you a little Missal with which you could see the Latin on one side of the page and English on the other. That would have enabled you to follow the Mass more closely and you would know exactly what the priest was saying. There were so many beautiful, reverent prayers in the Latin Mass that were removed when the Mass was changed to English. Many people think the Latin was translated word for word into English but that was not the case at all. Many reverent prayers were removed completely.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s a shame no one bought you a little Missal with which you could see the Latin on one side of the page and English on the other. That would have enabled you to follow the Mass more closely and you would know exactly what the priest was saying. There were so many beautiful, reverent prayers in the Latin Mass that were removed when the Mass was changed to English. Many people think the Latin was translated word for word into English but that was not the case at all. Many reverent prayers were removed completely.

So the problem is the removal of prayers, not the translation.

Personally I do not want to regularly attend a Liturgy in a language foreign to me. I, and everyone else should be involve in the worship of God. But if there are people who want Latin in their Mass (and there are), then they should have it. I wouldn’t force the vernacular on them and they shouldn’t force the Latin on me.

 

[trish2009]

So the problem is the removal of prayers, not the translation.

Personally I do not want to regularly attend a Liturgy in a language foreign to me. I, and everyone else should be involve in the worship of God. But if there are people who want Latin in their Mass (and there are), then they should have it. I wouldn’t force the vernacular on them and they shouldn’t force the Latin on me.

No, the problem was not in the removal of prayers. You misunderstood me. I’m merely saying that with a missal in hand one has no problem in following the Mass. It was done for hundreds of years and even uneducated people learned the simple phrases that were the responses. Actually the altar boys said the responses but the laity joined them. Even non-catholics knew what Et cum spiritu tuo meant.

As for forcing the Latin on you, the vernacular was forced on hundreds of thousands of Catholics with no preparation or warning. One Sunday you woke up and there was a Mass totally unlike what we were used to. But we accepted it. We had no choice.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No, the problem was not in the removal of prayers. You misunderstood me. I’m merely saying that with a missal in hand one has no problem in following the Mass. It was done for hundreds of years and even uneducated people learned the simple phrases that were the responses. Actually the altar boys said the responses but the laity joined them. Even non-catholics knew what Et cum spiritu tuo meant.

The problem with Missals is your concentration is not focused on the Missal rather than the Mass. Its like watching a foreign language film, and I tell you I’ve done so many times in the past (Chinese kung-fu films and Japanese anime). You find yourself reading the subtitles more and miss out on some details of whats going on.

Also, whats a response worth if you do not know the context of what you are responding to?

As for forcing the Latin on you, the vernacular was forced on hundreds of thousands of Catholics with no preparation or warning. One Sunday you woke up and there was a Mass totally unlike what we were used to. But we accepted it. We had no choice.

Truth be told, more people welcomed it that those who disliked it. While I agree that those who seek it should have access to it, a vernacular Mass fits the spiritual needs of more Roman Catholics today. Its just what it is.

 

[Cat]

No, the problem was not in the removal of prayers. You misunderstood me. I’m merely saying that with a missal in hand one has no problem in following the Mass. It was done for hundreds of years and even uneducated people learned the simple phrases that were the responses. Actually the altar boys said the responses but the laity joined them. Even non-catholics knew what Et cum spiritu tuo meant.

As for forcing the Latin on you, the vernacular was forced on hundreds of thousands of Catholics with no preparation or warning. One Sunday you woke up and there was a Mass totally unlike what we were used to. But we accepted it. We had no choice.

But what’s the point?

I agree with ConstantineTG–there is a divided focus. The Latin is doing nothing to enhance our Mass comprehension because we are looking to the translation throughout the Mass. To me, this is just putting a barrier in the way of comprehension.

There are those who find Latin an aid to helping them feel more worshipful. That’s great for them. But for so many of us, it’s just another hindrance to feeling worshipful.

When I was Protestant, I never, ever liked it when missionaries taught us “Jesus Loves Me” or John 3: 16 in foreign languages. I couldn’t see the point then, either. I kept thinking, “Why don’t we just sing ‘Jesus Loves Me’ or recite John 3:16 in our own language?”

But at least back then, I could understand that they were attempting to demonstrate to us what daily life on the mission field was like. Nowadays, since no one speaks Latin, the purpose of keeping Latin in the Mass is to show us what daily life was like 2000 years ago. I just don’t get it. Hooray for history, but honestly, I don’t want to be a re-enactor. I don’t need to re-enact the past to appreciate it.