Latin language and it's future role

[severus68]

Hello everybody

I am a new member as can be seen when looking at my join date.

First of all I would like to apologize if this subject has been discussed before.

I am currently studying the mother tongue of our church, the Roman Catholic Church on my own. I am lucky to know French and Italian and a great deal of Spanish (been studying it in school)

My question is this; Would it not be great and a blessing for us Catholics and all Christians for that matter to revive the Latin language not only as the language of Catholic clergy but also as a language that bounds us Catholics regardless of ethnicity and language? I think it is highly plausible that it would strengthen our common unity.

I am still very young, my English is not the best and I have not studied the Second Vatican Council as much as I should but I fell we lost something when Latin was removed during mass, most cultural tradition. I am not a Catholic traditionalist and I understand the need for reforms, especially when it concerns language barriers during mass but I feel those reforms reduced Latins ancient role in our religion, greatly.

What is others opinion on this subject?

And sorry for my English, again.

God Bless.

Your English is fine, don’t worry.

We are bound by our faith, by Christ. The Church is the universal church for all people of all races, cultures and languages. I have no issue with Latin masses but it should be a matter of choice. Christ used Aramaic at the Last Supper.

 

[ProVobis]

I have no issue with Latin masses but it should be a matter of choice. Christ used Aramaic at the Last Supper.

That may be but we don’t know this for sure, much less know the exact words Christ used. But we do know the nuances and meanings used in that time period and I doubt if any modern languages would be able to convey them.

Be that as it may, the Latin itself is probably better left for the scholars to decipher fully. If left to the illiterates and half-literates to use in normal conversations, it will corrupt itself into a more vulgar and mutable form, such as the ones which led to the Romance languages in the first place. But that is not to say no Catholic should ever be exposed to the Latin. He should be able to recognize the prayers if not even partially understand them. He simply won’t use Latin in normal everyday conversations, and that’s reason enough to keep Latin in the Mass.

We know, for example, Hoc est enim Corpus Meum means only one thing, that a consecration has taken place, while “This is My Body” can mean several things. Women’s groups use the phrase, kid’s use the phrase to justify eating junk, etc. It may seem logical to use the vernacular in speeches and conversation but why use the same English phrase as part of the Mass when we want to be much more precise with our words?

 

[Ohana]

Hi Gabriel,

You say you are very young, but you seem to have developed some intellectual maturity. Good for you.

I took Latin for a few years and it was very helpful to me in learning other romance languages (I am proficient in none, but get by in “babytalk”) It was also very helpful to my English usage, vocabulary and syntax.

There are currently Masses offered in Latin. Check around your diocese for one.close to you. Most parishes still use the vernacular. My greatest fear is that we will return to the Latin Mass.

As a child we had the Latin Rite. I did not understand it. Although I sort of knew what was occurring on the altar as I grew older, I really could not understand any of the words or prayers. I was told I needed to be attentive, but I saw the adults often say the Rosary during Mass. You do not see that today when the Mass is understandable.
.
We recently had the experience of attending Mass in a foreigh English speaking country. It was like going to Mass at home . Similarly, in countries that do not speak English, we can follow the Mass better than we did with the Latin Mass because we know the prayers in English and can say them *sotto voce *with the congregation.

I understand that to some the Latin Mass is more Mystical. For me, there are other mysteries in the Church to develop my sense of the mystical, I prefer it not to be a non-understandable Mass.

If it does increase your sense of God, worship, religious fulfillment - by all means find a Latin Mass. If you know Latin, it will be understandable to you which negates my objection.

Also: Say the Rosary - just not during Mass!

My best to you.

 

[OraLabora]

I am of French mother tongue like the OP. Latin isn’t too much of an obstacle for me. However the Church has grown past the boundaries of classical antiquity, from lands where at least some notions of Latin remain to places like SE Asia where Latin would be a significant challenge especially for the laity. Different alphabet, and totally different roots.

Latin needs to remain though as the core source language from which vernacular translations flow and should also be preserved in Western liturgy. But any fair discussion needs to adress the needs of the laity especially outside the Western nations and in areas with poor educational resources and literacy rates. Souls are at stake; literacy and language should not be a prerequisite for understanding the liturgy.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Hi Gabriel,

You say you are very young, but you seem to have developed some intellectual maturity. Good for you.

I took Latin for a few years and it was very helpful to me in learning other romance languages (I am proficient in none, but get by in “babytalk”) It was also very helpful to my English usage, vocabulary and syntax.

There are currently Masses offered in Latin. Check around your diocese for one.close to you. Most parishes still use the vernacular. My greatest fear is that we will return to the Latin Mass.

As a child we had the Latin Rite. I did not understand it. Although I sort of knew what was occurring on the altar as I grew older, I really could not understand any of the words or prayers. I was told I needed to be attentive, but I saw the adults often say the Rosary during Mass. You do not see that today when the Mass is understandable.
.
We recently had the experience of attending Mass in a foreigh English speaking country. It was like going to Mass at home . Similarly, in countries that do not speak English, we can follow the Mass better than we did with the Latin Mass because we know the prayers in English and can say them *sotto voce *with the congregation.

I understand that to some the Latin Mass is more Mystical. For me, there are other mysteries in the Church to develop my sense of the mystical, I prefer it not to be a non-understandable Mass.

If it does increase your sense of God, worship, religious fulfillment - by all means find a Latin Mass. If you know Latin, it will be understandable to you which negates my objection.

Also: Say the Rosary - just not during Mass!

My best to you.

The masses you attend on Sundays are still “Latin Rite,” even though they’re not in Latin.

 

[Stephen_W]

In my area, Amish and some Mennonite groups speak Pennsylvania Dutch, or rather, low German, and thier services are preached in High German. I did a study on language and slang for my church, and the one thing that really stood out was, nothing solidifies a group like a uniform language. Doesn’t matter if that group is a religious order or an inner-city gang, a common language binds them into a cohesive unit. It gives identity and unity. Even most technical and medical specialties develop thier own ways of comunicating with each other.

It’s true, learning another language takes effort and time, the Amish teach English and High German in thier schools since PA Dutch is commonly spoken at home, but the benefits are numerous.

Just thinking…

 

[severus68]

ProVobis;8474770]That may be but we don’t know this for sure, much less know the exact words Christ used. But we do know the nuances and meanings used in that time period and I doubt if any modern languages would be able to convey them.

I was of the view that that it is accepted that Christ spoke Aramaic as it was the language used at that time, at that place. Anyway, there are languages used today which are close to Aramaic which following your point, would make sense to be used, rather than latin.

Be that as it may, the Latin itself is probably better left for the scholars to decipher fully. If left to the illiterates and half-literates to use in normal conversations, it will corrupt itself into a more vulgar and mutable form, such as the ones which led to the Romance languages in the first place. But that is not to say no Catholic should ever be exposed to the Latin. He should be able to recognize the prayers if not even partially understand them. He simply won’t use Latin in normal everyday conversations, and that’s reason enough to keep Latin in the Mass.

If anyone wants to attend a Latin mass, that is fine but I am sorry I still do not see the necessity for every mass to be in Latin with most people not being Latin literate.

We know, for example, Hoc est enim Corpus Meum means only one thing, that a consecration has taken place, while “This is My Body” can mean several things. Women’s groups use the phrase, kid’s use the phrase to justify eating junk, etc. It may seem logical to use the vernacular in speeches and conversation but why use the same English phrase as part of the Mass when we want to be much more precise with our words?

Since Christ never used Latin and the Bible was not written in Latin, why would only the Latin words, accurate?

 

[severus68]

In my area, Amish and some Mennonite groups speak Pennsylvania Dutch, or rather, low German, and thier services are preached in High German. I did a study on language and slang for my church, and the one thing that really stood out was, nothing solidifies a group like a uniform language. Doesn’t matter if that group is a religious order or an inner-city gang, a common language binds them into a cohesive unit. It gives identity and unity. Even most technical and medical specialties develop thier own ways of comunicating with each other.

It’s true, learning another language takes effort and time, the Amish teach English and High German in thier schools since PA Dutch is commonly spoken at home, but the benefits are numerous.

Just thinking…

The Amish etc are more then their language. They choose to remain apart and in their own communities with their own customs and life styles. The Catholic Church is the universal church for all.

 

[ProVobis]

Since Christ never used Latin and the Bible was not written in Latin why would only the Latin words, accurate?

This seems to be a Protestant argument. You’re entirely missing the point about using modern languages but we wouldn’t know the accuracy of the Aramaic words either, even if we knew for certain He used Aramaic. And how do you know Christ never used Latin? He lived in the Roman Empire under Roman law, didn’t He? He preached in the Temple before He was a teenager so I imagine by the time He was thirty, He had some knowledge of most of the languages around Him. Not to mention that the inscription on the cross was in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. And there is evidence there were liturgies in Latin in the first century.

And how do you know the original St. Paul letters to the Romans weren’t originally written or dictated in Latin? So you know, there was an early Latin version of the Bible, the Vetus Latina, which St. Jerome used as a basis for his Latin Vulgate. It was of poor quality and most may have been lost but it doesn’t mean the Bible or the Church didn’t need the early Latin. Much information was disseminated by the Roman writers of that period.

 

[ProVobis]

nothing solidifies a group like a uniform language.

As long as it’s not English.

 

[severus68]

This seems to be a Protestant argument. You’re entirely missing the point about using modern languages but we wouldn’t know the accuracy of the Aramaic words either, even if we knew for certain He used Aramaic. And how do you know Christ never used Latin? He lived in the Roman Empire under Roman law, didn’t He? He preached in the Temple before He was a teenager so I imagine by the time He was thirty, He had some knowledge of most of the languages around Him. Not to mention that the inscription on the cross was in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. And there is evidence there were liturgies in Latin in the first century.

And how do you know the original St. Paul letters to the Romans weren’t originally written or dictated in Latin? So you know, there was an early Latin version of the Bible, the Vetus Latina, which St. Jerome used as a basis for his Latin Vulgate. It was of poor quality and most may have been lost but it doesn’t mean the Bible or the Church didn’t need the early Latin. Much information was disseminated by the Roman writers of that period.

Protestant arguement? Lol, great way to push your views.

English is more than an international language today then Latin ever was. Yes, Latin is still useful and no language should die.

So you are saying Christ may have spoke in Latin in the temple? Why would he have spoken in Latin at the last Supper? Joseph was a carpenter, the apostles were fishermen etc and he would speak to them in the language of their Roman oppressors. The inscription on the cross was placed by the Roman soldiers as instructed by Pilate, the words were his.

 

[Ohana]

The masses you attend on Sundays are still “Latin Rite,” even though they’re not in Latin.

Yup, I think I knew that! Thought about it after the post. Is the old Mass then the Tridentine or is that something else. What I meant was a Mass celebrated in Latin that I could not understand. I had the columned missalette too, which did not help much.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I think Latin would be a great language to be taught more often, it allows us to truly understand what the Church means in Her teachings

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yup, I think I knew that! Thought about it after the post. Is the old Mass then the Tridentine or is that something else. What I meant was a Mass celebrated in Latin that I could not understand. I had the columned missalette too, which did not help much.

The OF and the EF are both the “Latin Rite” or “Roman Rite,” just different forms of it.

 

[ProVobis]

The OF and the EF are both the “Latin Rite” or “Roman Rite,” just different forms of it.

This is true. Both forms are in Latin but the bishops have approved certain translations to be used for the Ordinary Form. The EF, or the missal of Blessed Pope John XXIII, can be said only untranslated, as that Pope probably would have never approved a Mass in the vernacular, based on Veterum Sapientia.