Latin Mass for Dummies?

[bear06]

Iohannes:

What does ecumenism mean? Too many answers.

That’s about the answer I thought I’d get - no answer at all.

 

[bear06]

We do not know if it was founded on an “impossiblity” of attending NOM.

I
You have to take into account that other documents issued have said that there is no necessity just because a Tridentine Mass is not available so it would have to be some sort of impossiblity in attending a “NOM”

 

[bear06]

Now, if it is permitted by Perl in a paticular instance, * then in that instance, it became “permitted” ie became licit.*

Ok, if you’re going to use this reasoning then you’d have to say that your wackiest “Novus Ordo” using the form, matter and intent but wacky in every other way can’t possibly be illicit because we have permission to go to it? It’s now valid AND licit. So I guess we have no more problems in our Church.

Ask yourself why Msgr. Perl’s response has been spread far and wide but the author’s original letter, despite repeated pleas, has never been made public? Ask yourself why, if the Remnant’s et. al. interpretation of Msgr. Perl’s original response was correct, why he had to print a clarification at all? My gosh, the original letter wasn’t even printed in full!!! Msgr. Perl even says it was a “truncated version”. They just pick soundbites out of context to support their position and ditch the rest which is probably what happened to the original query. It, in all likelihood does not support their claims. Half-truths are the M.O.

 

[TNT]

GOOD, now just issue the WHOLE truth, which can only come from Perl with the permission of the inquirer. We are not a secret society, and this exposure to the light of day can only be helpful to disband all the speculations.
Let’s hear from Perl.
I think yur comparative of wacky masses relates more to validity, not licity, which would be secondary at best.

 

[palmas85]

Iohannes:

What does ecumenism mean? Too many answers.

Ecumenical dialogue was intended to bring the different branches of Christianity together under one large umbrella, disregarding the differences, claimed to be very few, and celebrating the similarities, claimed to be many. In theory, a noble goal. In practice pretty much of a disaster.

Most Protestants don’t actually see Catholicism as Christianity saying instead that Catholicism meets every definition of a cult. They by and large have absolutely no interest in joing under a large umbrella where everyone is a big happy family. They see us as esentially being damned anyway and sorely in need of devine intervention.

My belief has always been that the Vaticans move towards ecumenism was laudable, a great experiment and started with the best of intentions. Pope John Paul 2, rest in peace, probably had more of a burning desire for ecumenism than anything else at all. Yet after all these years we are no closer than when the whole thing started.

We as Catholics have changed many of our practices, while they have not. They see the fact that we changed not as accomodation but weakness and faulty beliefs. In the process they generally figured, well, if the Catholics were so ready to change, they didn’t realy have much faith to begin with.

For those of you who still support this failed experiment I can only ask one question.

Why?

Either The Catholic Church is the one true church or it isn’t. The truth must be the truth. Something partially true is defined as a lie. Truth is not a matter of degrees.

 

[Mummybee]

Okay, well sorry folks, but I’m going to steer this thread back to where it originally started with an update.

This was our second Sunday attending the local indult Latin Tridentine Mass and we did much better at following along. This week we tried using the missals that the ushers hand out, which have comments in the margins explaining lots of things, and illustrations of the priest’s actions, place before the altar, etc. It also has marked when to sit, kneel, genuflect, stand, etc, and when the bells should be rung. All this made it MUCH easier to keep from getting lost. The more I catch on, the more questions I have, though. For example, the significance of moving around on the altar (epistle side, gospel side, etc).

Interestingly enough, Father’s homily today was about the significance of the place of the altar, and it being made of stone (usually). He explained that the altar represents Christ Himself, which is why the priest kisses the altar so many times. (I could go in to greater length about his homily, but I’ll stop here). Anyway, we are still learning, and are more and more enthralled and growing so much more in love with the Mass this way. To us, it is so much more reverent. The Tridentine liturgy has so many more moments when the priest begs forgiveness for his unworthiness (and ours, on our behalf). In the N.O., there is only one (right before communion: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.) Don’t get me wrong, I am definitely not anti-N.O. However, the more I learn about the Tridentine, the more profound it is to me.

So, that’s my update. Thanks for all the suggestions. I’ll be poking around the bookstore looking for them soon.

Thanks again!

 

[Eileen_T]

Do you sing the Mass, I found that easier. I play the music in my car on my way to work, so I have become more familiar with it. I am fortunate to have 2 missals from pre-VII days.

I have a book How Christ Said the First Mass by Fr James L. Meagher (TAN Books). It shows how Catholic liturgical traditions go back to Jewish Temple worship. It’s amazing how the TLM came to be the way it is.

Apparently, Jesus included the principle elements of Temple sacrifice and the synagogue worship in our Mass, and Fr Meagher says that the form of it was virtually complete by the time of the death of St Peter.

 

[Mummybee]

Eileen T:

Do you sing the Mass, I found that easier. I play the music in my car on my way to work, so I have become more familiar with it. I am fortunate to have 2 missals from pre-VII days.

I have a book How Christ Said the First Mass by Fr James L. Meagher (TAN Books). It shows how Catholic liturgical traditions go back to Jewish Temple worship. It’s amazing how the TLM came to be the way it is.

Apparently, Jesus included the principle elements of Temple sacrifice and the synagogue worship in our Mass, and Fr Meagher says that the form of it was virtually complete by the time of the death of St Peter.

You know, I once heard Rosslyn Moss on The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi on EWTN telling the story of her conversion. (She is a former Jew.) When she and her brother finally went to their first Mass (N.O.) they were flabbergasted at how much it was like Jewish worship services. She mentioned several parts, emphasizing that it was virtually identical in places. I wish I could remember more of what she said. It reeaaaallly got me thinking. That was several months ago. Since attending TLM, I see even more the similarity to the way sacrifices in the temple of David were described in the Old Testament.

The book you mention sounds really exciting. My reading list is starting to get long! Thanks!

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Mummybee:

Okay, well sorry folks, but I’m going to steer this thread back to where it originally started with an update.

This was our second Sunday attending the local indult Latin Tridentine Mass and we did much better at following along. This week we tried using the missals that the ushers hand out, which have comments in the margins explaining lots of things, and illustrations of the priest’s actions, place before the altar, etc. It also has marked when to sit, kneel, genuflect, stand, etc, and when the bells should be rung. All this made it MUCH easier to keep from getting lost. The more I catch on, the more questions I have, though. For example, the significance of moving around on the altar (epistle side, gospel side, etc).

Interestingly enough, Father’s homily today was about the significance of the place of the altar, and it being made of stone (usually). He explained that the altar represents Christ Himself, which is why the priest kisses the altar so many times. (I could go in to greater length about his homily, but I’ll stop here). Anyway, we are still learning, and are more and more enthralled and growing so much more in love with the Mass this way. To us, it is so much more reverent. The Tridentine liturgy has so many more moments when the priest begs forgiveness for his unworthiness (and ours, on our behalf). In the N.O., there is only one (right before communion: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.) Don’t get me wrong, I am definitely not anti-N.O. However, the more I learn about the Tridentine, the more profound it is to me.

So, that’s my update. Thanks for all the suggestions. I’ll be poking around the bookstore looking for them soon.

Thanks again!

That’s great! You’ll come to really appreciate Father Myers. He’s great! Also, be sure to take advantage of the wonderful Confessors who offer the sacrament at the TLM. They are simply top notch!

 

[Mummybee]

Scotty PGH:

That’s great! You’ll come to really appreciate Father Myers. He’s great! Also, be sure to take advantage of the wonderful Confessors who offer the sacrament at the TLM. They are simply top notch!

Actually, my husband went on the first Sunday we were there. He was very nervous, because he worried it would be different from the way he’s used to confession. I dug up his childhood, pre-VII missal (it’s great! Very helpful to adults!) and he reviewed it before he went. His concern was of course, for nothing. There was a visiting priest that day, so he actually got Fr. Meyers as a confessor. The only thing different, he said, was that instead of some abstract, unchallenging penance (which we have become accustomed to from our old parish & the cathedral) he got a good stiff penance! I had to laugh, because it was just almost a relief to be taken seriously in the confessional. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had some fantastic confessors (Fr. Schatz, Fr. Brier at the cathedral) but I’ve had some whack-jobs, too. I actually had to wake the priest up at the end of my confession at my old parish in Turtle Creek. I was livid and was in a much worse state of sin after I left the place than I was before I went in.