Latin Mass funeral - help!

[Peggy_M]

I was wondering whether some of you could advise me on a particularly difficult issue between my husband and I. My husband is a devotee of the Latin Mass (although he usually attends the Novus Ordo Mass) and his parents are especially keen on attending the Tridentine Mass - only occasionally attending the Novus Ordo.

I, on the other hand only attend Mass in English. I did once accidentally attend a Latin Mass ( I thought it was going to be in English) and I personally felt left out and that I hadn’t attended Mass, as I found it too difficult to follow what was going on and to pronounce the words of the prayers whereas everyone else coped with ease. (That is not to say that I do not recognise the Latin Mass as valid- because I do).

My husband informed me last night that his parents want Latin Requiem Masses when the time comes. He also informed me that he didn’t expect me to attend as he knows that I struggle with the latin. I believe however that this would upset the rest of the mourners. However, if I do go I really don’t know what to do. I can’t say the responses (I tried to learn the Latin ones and the person teaching me gave up in frustration at my inability to master them ) My husband says that I could go and read a devotional booklet during Mass or say the Rosary (he says that he doesn’t agree with these practices himself but that there are plenty that do!). Additionally, I have encountered a reasonable amount of hostility from the local Latin Mass attendees towards those who attend the new rite so I’m worried about how to fit in. It seems to me that whatever I do it will cause problems. I’m struggling to get across to my husband how out of my depth I feel in the Latin Mass / with local Latin Mass Society members.

I appreciate that my viewpoint might be different to the members of this forum but I would be grateful for any advice that any helpful person can give!

NB: I’m living in England so perhaps things are different to how they are done in America?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Perhaps you’re making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.

You’re talking about a total of two Masses at some undetermined future time. If you don’t participate or don’t want to participate in the Latin, can’t you just quietly and respectfully observe what is going on? You don’t have to like it or dislike it, but simply be present there for your husband.

 

[sw85]

Perhaps you’re making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.

You’re talking about a total of two Masses at some undetermined future time. If you don’t participate or don’t want to participate in the Latin, can’t you just quietly and respectfully observe what is going on? You don’t have to like it or dislike it, but simply be present there for your husband.

This. Also, if it is important to you to make the responses, you could easily train yourself in making the responses with the aid of a hand Missal or booklet. Those people for whom it is easy have years or even decades of experience saying the same few hundred words at a Latin Mass, so of course it is easy for them – you have only been to one, and were caught off-guard by it too.

For the majority of Roman-rite Catholic history people who had no (native) Latin experienced an exclusively Latin liturgy; some of them managed to became saints. There’s a learning curve to it, is all.

 

[Mike_Dye]

If your husbands (spouse) parents were Protestant and died would you attend their funeral? I believe most of us would. I know I would, if that was the case in my family. It’s like two Masses. Catholic Masses at that. Who knows, you may even die before they do and won’t have to worry about it.

 

[spiderweb]

I would also recommend that you get a Latin/English missal. They have the Latin on one side and English on the other. Familiarize yourself with it. You do not have to say the Latin responses out loud with the rest of the congregation, but you can say the English response silently at that time.

My mother attended the Latin Mass all her life and at one point discovered that she was actually saying the Latin incorrectly right before communion. In English this would be “Lord I am not worthy…” She discovered that what she was saying in Latin was actually “Lord I am worthy…” So to this day (now 80+ yrs old) when it comes to that part of the mass, she says the English words silently.

Lastly I would simply recommend going a little more frequently while following along in the Latin/English Missal. Ask the priest to be able to borrow or purchase a basic one just so you can look at it at home sometime and have your husband walk through it with you and explain the similarity’s and the differences between the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Weejee]

I would also recommend that you get a Latin/English missal. They have the Latin on one side and English on the other. Familiarize yourself with it. You do not have to say the Latin responses out loud with the rest of the congregation, but you can say the English response silently at that time.

My mother attended the Latin Mass all her life and at one point discovered that she was actually saying the Latin incorrectly right before communion. In English this would be “Lord I am not worthy…” She discovered that what she was saying in Latin was actually “Lord I am worthy…” So to this day (now 80+ yrs old) when it comes to that part of the mass, she says the English words silently.

Lastly I would simply recommend going a little more frequently while following along in the Latin/English Missal. Ask the priest to be able to borrow or purchase a basic one just so you can look at it at home sometime and have your husband walk through it with you and explain the similarity’s and the differences between the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass.

First of all, I feel really bad that the Latin Mass people were so rude to you. A church should be welcoming to strangers and newbies who come in. That’s what Jesus would like.
Just follow along on the English side of the missal the best you can. That’s what I did as a kid back in the early sixties, and no, I didn’t go to Catholic school where they taught you Latin and how to go along in the missal.

That’s what I did last Sunday when I went to a Latin Mass.

If the Tridentine Mass is not your cup of tea, those people should realize you came along as a good wife.

Here in the U.S., we call the Tridentine the “Extraordinary Form” and the Novus Ordo the “Ordinary Form.” Most people go to the Ordinary Form and that’s what makes it ordinary. (I guess; I’m no scholar.) I wish those people in your in-law’s congregtion would be more welcoming.:hug1:

I doubt you’re going to die before your in-laws will. At least, I hope not.

 

[Book_Worm]

If there is any time when a wife should be beside her DH, supporting him, his parent’s funeral would certainly be one of them.

The important thing will be that you are there. If there are any attendees who are critical of your participation, that would be extraordinarily uncharitable and deserves absolutely no participation.

If you feel uncomfortable not making the responses, just do what the majority of people around me did when i was young and Latin Masses were the norm - mumble.

 

[Peggy_M]

Thank you to everyone for your help and suggestions. I very much appreciate the time and trouble taken by everyone to respond - especially when we hold differing views. I know that this can be a very contentious topic so I appreciate that we can discuss this in a dignified way.

I like the idea of following the English text in my head and not trying to even pronounce the Latin as it means that I can actually participate, rather than just observe (and not look like a fool in the process!)

Thanks once again for everyone’s help.

 

[friardchips]

I was wondering whether some of you could advise me on a particularly difficult issue between my husband and I. My husband is a devotee of the Latin Mass (although he usually attends the Novus Ordo Mass) and his parents are especially keen on attending the Tridentine Mass - only occasionally attending the Novus Ordo.

I, on the other hand only attend Mass in English. I did once accidentally attend a Latin Mass ( I thought it was going to be in English) and I personally felt left out and that I hadn’t attended Mass, as I found it too difficult to follow what was going on and to pronounce the words of the prayers whereas everyone else coped with ease. (That is not to say that I do not recognise the Latin Mass as valid- because I do).

My husband informed me last night that his parents want Latin Requiem Masses when the time comes. He also informed me that he didn’t expect me to attend as he knows that I struggle with the latin. I believe however that this would upset the rest of the mourners. However, if I do go I really don’t know what to do. I can’t say the responses (I tried to learn the Latin ones and the person teaching me gave up in frustration at my inability to master them ) My husband says that I could go and read a devotional booklet during Mass or say the Rosary (he says that he doesn’t agree with these practices himself but that there are plenty that do!). Additionally, I have encountered a reasonable amount of hostility from the local Latin Mass attendees towards those who attend the new rite so I’m worried about how to fit in. It seems to me that whatever I do it will cause problems. I’m struggling to get across to my husband how out of my depth I feel in the Latin Mass / with local Latin Mass Society members.

I appreciate that my viewpoint might be different to the members of this forum but I would be grateful for any advice that any helpful person can give!

NB: I’m living in England so perhaps things are different to how they are done in America?

I am not a Traditional Catholic but by definition of being a Roman Catholic we are all traditional in the most important ways. I would say that because in this occasion you are attending Masses that are for those who prefer the Traditional Rite then I’d second another post and suggest getting an English/Latin missal - that’s what I’d do.

It seems a bit funny that your husband would suggest that you not go, which to me sounds as if it is a small relationship issue not a religious one, and so needs discussion. If I was with someone, married, and they suggested I not go I would have something to say.

In terms of people being stuffy and only attending Latin Rite Masses; if they are like that then it is not the Latin Mass that is the problem but their attitude to what they believe Christianity is all about and so I would be wary and not obsequiously try and get in with them to please anyone, not even your husband - kind but a bit distant. If your husband attends *Novus Ordo * Masses then you don’t need to worry because that is an accepting thing to do that shows obedience. If there are people who only attend the Traditional Rite, well some may just love the old Mass a lot, but there will be some who oppose the New Rite also. Even if I was to attend Traditional Rite Masses more often because it was what was available, I would make sure I attend at least one *Novos Ordo * Sunday Mass every month at least, to show obedience to Rome. So be wary of being drawn into any society as this can very often lead people astray - including the one you mentioned - because Church is not a private club.

My last point would be that to learn simple Latin could take time for some but worth doing because there are many hymns and lots of texts in Latin that could do with a bit of understanding of the language not just used in Trad. Masses. It might be a chance for you to learn something new, even if it takes you a long time, because the good things come from hard work as a rule.

 

[aTraditionalist]

Did I misunderstand? Your husband doesn’t support the rosary and devotionals?

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[OraLabora]

There is always the option of an OF Requiem Mass. The chants of the Propers and Ordinary can be in Latin from the Graduale Romanum, but the rest of the Mass in English (prayers, readings, EP…). Properly done an OF Requiem can be very beautiful, our schola does them on request all the time.

The only stickler is that the Dies Irae is no longer sung in the OF, but it can be added “extra-liturgically” such as after the final dismissal.

Otherwise the chants of the OF and EF are exactly the same for the Requiem.

 

[YoungTradCath]

So just sit there quietly, I don’t think anyone will mind.

 

[O_Sapientia]

Even if I was to attend Traditional Rite Masses more often because it was what was available, I would make sure I attend at least one *Novos Ordo * Sunday Mass every month at least, to show obedience to Rome. So be wary of being drawn into any society as this can very often lead people astray - including the one you mentioned - because Church is not a private club.

And what, people that exclusively attend the Extraordinary Form are being disobedient? What say you of the numerous priestly fraternities and religious congregations of men and woman who exclusively worship according to the Extraordinary Form? Are they disobedient?

The thoughts you have expressed here are wholly unbecoming. You are choosing to speak where Rome does not. You are seeking to impose on the faithful where the Church is silent. That is wrong.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

 

[sirach2v4]

The Latin Mass was translated into English, and then some variations or alternative prayers were added, so that it would not suffer the monotony of words.

But, having said that, you should be able to recognize what is going on, even though it is not in English. When I served Mass in Latin for 8 years, there was never an obligation of the congregation to participate in the responses. So, you, through no fault of your own, can’t do it – so there, get used to it --please.

The Epistle and Gospel are read both in Latin and then in English, so you won’t be lost there. The homily will be in English – certainly not Latin.

Remember, no matter what anybody will admit to or not, you definitely won’t be alone in not understanding the liturgy. Who know? Maybe a special booklet with side-by-side prayers will be available and you won’t feel so lost.

 

[powerofk]

And what, people that exclusively attend the Extraordinary Form are being disobedient? What say you of the numerous priestly fraternities and religious congregations of men and woman who exclusively worship according to the Extraordinary Form? Are they disobedient?

The thoughts you have expressed here are wholly unbecoming. You are choosing to speak where Rome does not. You are seeking to impose on the faithful where the Church is silent. That is wrong.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

I prefer to err on the side of caution here. Though friardchips’ words could be construed that those who go exclusively to the EF are disobedient, I doubt that that was what he was trying to say (though I’m not sure - I’m just hunching here). I think that he was implying, that for him (and for many Catholics), going exclusively to the EF would present a temptation in believing that ONLY the EF was valid. This, unfortunately, seems to be the belief of groups such as SSPX.

Groups such as the FSSP, who are in union with Rome, exclusively use the EF, but acknowledge the validity of the OF.

 

[Peggy_M]

Did I misunderstand? Your husband doesn’t support the rosary and devotionals?

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Sorry, I might not have phrased myself very well there. He does indeed say the rosary and reads devotional texts, but he believes in doing this outside of the Mass and not during it.

Sorry for any confusion!

 

[friardchips]

And what, people that exclusively attend the Extraordinary Form are being disobedient? What say you of the numerous priestly fraternities and religious congregations of men and woman who exclusively worship according to the Extraordinary Form? Are they disobedient?

The thoughts you have expressed here are wholly unbecoming. You are choosing to speak where Rome does not. You are seeking to impose on the faithful where the Church is silent. That is wrong.

In Jesus and Mary,
OS.

You have mistaken my post. I have no problem with religious communities who wish to celebrate the Traditional Mass. I happen to love one of these Orders. Quite honestly and quite literally. I adore this Order. These Orders would not call themselves ‘Trad Caths’ even if they celebrate the Latin Mass every day which they do for the most part.

My views are right down the centre of the Church as in accordance with Rome -‘Traditional Catholicism’ is not a healthy term. Period.

As I said in my post: ‘If there are people who only attend the Traditional Rite, well some may just love the old Mass a lot…’.

Of course, there are also going to be people who prefer it to the New Rite, and attend only Trad. Rite Masses, and lets this grow uncontrolled into opposition; this appears to be a little disingenuous if you don’t think this not to be true(?). Hence, why people set up societies in the first place!..

It is one thing for a religious community to do this all the time but quite another for laity to attend only these. That is not to say that opposition to the New is always the case but this is a danger that comes with the territory and best to attend whatever is at hand for the sake of obedience to God.

But I said this already in my last post. If my words could have been misconstrued then I will try to write clearer in future and thank you for the correction.

 

[friardchips]

I prefer to err on the side of caution here. Though friardchips’ words could be construed that those who go exclusively to the EF are disobedient, I doubt that that was what he was trying to say (though I’m not sure - I’m just hunching here). I think that he was implying, that for him (and for many Catholics), going exclusively to the EF would present a temptation in believing that ONLY the EF was valid. This, unfortunately, seems to be the belief of groups such as SSPX.

Groups such as the FSSP, who are in union with Rome, exclusively use the EF, but acknowledge the validity of the OF.

Sort of, yes. I think it is a temptation and would be one. I am a vulnerable person like anyone else so although I wasn’t speaking of myself necessarily I would say that I would watch out for my own soul. It is good and healthy advice to remain down the centre of the Church, and just get on with it, so to speak, and gratefully receive whatever is offered - I feel this shows humble trust. I am not speaking out against those who prefer one to the other, but rather saying that, for the sake of obedience, it is good to try to love the New Rite also and not be led too far the other way.

When I first experienced a Latin Mass I was so *very rested *in the Lord, I can’t tell you how amazing it was. But I have received great blessings at the New Rite too so I suppose I am just saying be careful, 'tis all. I do think some have strong views and one must be vigilant in not allowing this negativity to affect our faith and trust in God’s Divine Providence.

I must admit, I came across strongly with my view of the term ‘Traditional Catholicism’, this thinking is in line with Rome though, and I stand by this, and I think it would not be sincere for anyone to suggest that there will not be members of societies that are set up to promote the Trad. Mass exclusively who would prefer to refer to themselves under that title. I don’t wish to expand any further or argue the point I am just letting the OP know because maybe she did not. The rest is up to her.

As I said before, because these people expressed a wish to attend Old Rite Masses, then getting a Latin/English Missal seems to be a great solution.

Thanks.

With love and goodwill to all.

 

[friardchips]

In response to the Poster directly who spoke of different groups etc…I’ll be aware of such societies and groups if / when I have to be. For the time being, I am content to be in the knowledge that I was baptised a Roman Catholic, and not let politics or taking sides, unless it is the Pope’s side, of course, enter into my faith. Being a Christian is hard enough without complicating matters as is getting to Heaven and trying to lead others there too. Keep it “simple and straightforward” was the advice from one incredible Saint. God bless.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

My husband informed me last night that his parents want Latin Requiem Masses when the time comes. He also informed me that he didn’t expect me to attend as he knows that I struggle with the latin. I believe however that this would upset the rest of the mourners. However, if I do go I really don’t know what to do. I can’t say the responses (I tried to learn the Latin ones and the person teaching me gave up in frustration at my inability to master them

I find the notion that you cannot say the responses completely implausible.

Grade school boys learned the responses for years, so it is not above and beyond the capacity of a person with normal speaking skills.

The easiest approach is to have someone transliterate them into phonetic equivalents, just as you might do in an English-French phrase book for a visit to the Continent.

Additionally, I have encountered a reasonable amount of hostility from the local Latin Mass attendees towards those who attend the new rite so I’m worried about how to fit in. It seems to me that whatever I do it will cause problems.

I cannot imagine why you would encounter hostility unless you identify yourself in some way as opposed to the Extraordinary form.

In my travels I have attended Melkite, Anglican Use, Russian, French, and numerous other language and/or rite Eucharists. My level of participation varied depending on my familiarity with the language or the rite, but this is no big deal.

Have hubby transliterate the responses and procure a video of a Latin Mass - which are readily available - so you can familiarize yourself with the appearance and sound of the rite. Knowledge is the best remedy for fear.

.