Latin Mass in Economically Depressed Areas

[StGerardMajella]

To state you can no longer attend Mass because of this fear is not rational. The OP clearly has means to go elsewhere if he fears for his safety downtown.

I am perfectly rational. I don’t think that a criminal or an extremist is going to deliberately choose a “Latin Mass” for his/her target to commit a crime. It just so happens that the Latin Mass offerings all tend to be in very high crime areas, and neighborhoods where there is fear of radical extremism as I mentioned earlier.

My biggest fear is for a gunman to break into the church in the middle of Mass and start shooting. Why? Because not a mile away from my church this nearly happened - It was only by a sliver’s chance that the police caught the criminal extremist before he could perpetrate his evil on innocent churchgoers.

The suburbs won’t help. We are seeing mass shootings in Paris, France, for crying out loud, not to mention Orlando, Charleston, and now even Dallas and Baton Rouge. 80 some odd people mowed down by a nutcase in Nice, France, this past weekend. There is no “geographic boundary” to where and when these events can and will occur. The only common denominator seems to be for the extremists to target a large crowd for maximum impact.

Odds? Really? You want to talk about odds? Some of our major cities are hotbeds for criminal and gang activity - high murder rates, drugs, you name it.

The only saving grace is to stay away from large crowds, and preferably attend Mass in more rural areas. I don’t call that paranoia. The violence in this country continues to escalate and it is only going to continue to get worse.

 

[OraLabora]

I am perfectly rational. I don’t think that a criminal or an extremist is going to deliberately choose a “Latin Mass” for his/her target to commit a crime. It just so happens that the Latin Mass offerings all tend to be in very high crime areas, and neighborhoods where there is fear of radical extremism as I mentioned earlier.

My biggest fear is for a gunman to break into the church in the middle of Mass and start shooting. Why? Because not a mile away from my church this nearly happened - It was only by a sliver’s chance that the police caught the criminal extremist before he could perpetrate his evil on innocent churchgoers.

The suburbs won’t help. We are seeing mass shootings in Paris, France, for crying out loud, not to mention Orlando, Charleston, and now even Dallas and Baton Rouge. 80 some odd people mowed down by a nutcase in Nice, France, this past weekend. There is no “geographic boundary” to where and when these events can and will occur. The only common denominator seems to be for the extremists to target a large crowd for maximum impact.

Odds? Really? You want to talk about odds? Some of our major cities are hotbeds for criminal and gang activity - high murder rates, drugs, you name it.

The only saving grace is to stay away from large crowds, and preferably attend Mass in more rural areas. I don’t call that paranoia. The violence in this country continues to escalate and it is only going to continue to get worse.

As others have said you can fulfill your Sunday duty by attending the OF. If you choose to attend the EF exclusively in a dangerous area, that’s your choice. Much more likely to find OF Masses in quiet rural parishes.

I agree the level of violence seems to be increasing in the US, at least if I’m to believe what I read in the media up here in Canada. It’s very worrying indeed.

You don’t specify your exact location but are there any conventual Masses of religious communities you could attend instead? While most are in the OF, monastics in particular tend to put an awful lot of thought and care into their liturgies. You may find plainchant, although not always in Latin.

 

[otjm]

I am perfectly rational. I don’t think that a criminal or an extremist is going to deliberately choose a “Latin Mass” for his/her target to commit a crime. It just so happens that the Latin Mass offerings all tend to be in very high crime areas, and neighborhoods where there is fear of radical extremism as I mentioned earlier.

My biggest fear is for a gunman to break into the church in the middle of Mass and start shooting. Why? Because not a mile away from my church this nearly happened - It was only by a sliver’s chance that the police caught the criminal extremist before he could perpetrate his evil on innocent churchgoers.

The suburbs won’t help. We are seeing mass shootings in Paris, France, for crying out loud, not to mention Orlando, Charleston, and now even Dallas and Baton Rouge. 80 some odd people mowed down by a nutcase in Nice, France, this past weekend. There is no “geographic boundary” to where and when these events can and will occur. The only common denominator seems to be for the extremists to target a large crowd for maximum impact.

Odds? Really? You want to talk about odds? Some of our major cities are hotbeds for criminal and gang activity - high murder rates, drugs, you name it.

The only saving grace is to stay away from large crowds, and preferably attend Mass in more rural areas. I don’t call that paranoia. The violence in this country continues to escalate and it is only going to continue to get worse.

To an extent, you are mixing your perpetrators.

On one hand, you have jihadists, either as a member if ISIS, or a recruit/sympathetic reaction of adopting their theological thought pattern. While there have been attacks against Christians (the beheadings in the Middle East are the example), attacks in western Europe and in the US are targeting different groups. They have not attacked parishioners in church.

And while there have been some killing of groups, the focus again has not been on people in churches, with one exception, and that appears to be a racial issue, not an issue with any particular denomination.

Criminals, generally gang members, are responsible for many shootings; but any review of them largely puts that in the category of gang against gang. If your church area is rife with gangs, it is far likelier that someone from the parish could be shot during an exchange between gangs; but the gangs are not targeting churches. They are targeting each other, and it tends toward what is euphemistically called “spray and pray”, which is where accuracy doesn’t really exist. That is where bystanders get caught up in it.

I am not suggesting there is no problem, but as far as anyone going into a church and blasting away, the church is one of the safer places to be. It is more likely someone intending to kill a number of people would go to somewhere like a mall. Frankly, you are safer inside the church, by far, than you are coming or going to it

To reiterate: Charleston was a racially motivated shooting, as were Dallas and Baton Rouge. None have anything to do with targeting a congregation as such.

France, Belgium, and the jihadist attacks in the US are targeting for chaos, but are not targeting churches.

Gang war shootings are far more likely to be a problem. and those are not selecting churches either.

 

[StGerardMajella]

On one hand, you have jihadists, either as a member if ISIS, or a recruit/sympathetic reaction of adopting their theological thought pattern. While there have been attacks against Christians (the beheadings in the Middle East are the example), attacks in western Europe and in the US are targeting different groups. They have not attacked parishioners in church.

You make some valid points on historical violence. However, the person that was attempting to shoot up the local Protestant church was a jihadist. He was caught just a few weeks back, not long ago. He was targeting a large congregation with the intent of shooting as many people as he could. Scary stuff.

In Israel, about a year or so ago, some jihadists with machetes entered a synagogue and attacked innocent civilians who were simply there to pray. There was bloodshed everywhere and the story hit the headlines worldwide. I believe the State of Israel posted armed guards outside of many synagogues right after this event occurred.

I don’t put it past these radicals to make mayhem in our churches. A couple years ago, we had vandalism at a suburban church where the sacristy was burned and damaged by vandals. Very evil stuff.

I tend to think this is not a matter of “if”, but a matter of “when”. One church we attend sits right off of a freeway, so it would make for a fast getaway for a band of extremists. Across from the church are tenements, and it is not uncommon for me to have to walk past sketchy characters just to get from the parking lot to the church. We have people watching the parking lot, but I believe they are unarmed.

A second church in this area that offers a Latin Mass about a year ago had a white man beaten to a pulp just outside the church near a bus stop. This was racial violence. Call me paranoid, but this kind of violence is happening too close to home for my comfort. While suburbs might be more safe, these kinds of incidents are happening there, too, albeit with less regularity.

You don’t specify your exact location but are there any conventual Masses of religious communities you could attend instead?

I would rather have this thread directed towards what Catholics in general can do, and what the Church should be doing to protect against these incidents from occurring in the first place. I don’t think the police will help. I think the Church as a whole needs to come up with a game plan to thwart these incidents from occurring on church grounds. I’ll figure out a solution on my own as to what I am going to do to attend Mass.

I am at the point now where I am of the belief that our churches should have armed guards out front, especially in rough neighborhoods. This is the bare minimum that should be done.

 

[Kielbasi]

Our local Archdiocese holds its weekly Latin Mass in a downtown area in an economically depressed area. Not only is it economically depressed, but crime is rampant in the surrounding neighborhood - gangs, drugs, etc. .

In a lot of our cities, there have been population shifts. Probably the church was built by immigrants a century or more ago, the immigrants left for the suburbs a long time ago, and new ethnic groups with a lot few Catholics took their place.

The church building of course remains, but with a lot fewer Catholics in the immediate area.

Makes those kinds of locations a practical solution as to where to locate Latin Masses or other activities that draw people from a broad area.

I think, however, you’re overstating the danger here- particularly on a Sunday morning. A lot of church goers are out in the Ghetto on Sunday morn- even if they aren’t Catholic- the good people likely outnumber the bad at such a time of day.

 

[ProVobis]

Wow, there’s only one mass a weekend in your entire archdiocese? Not.

Your obligation is to attend Mass, not that mass, not that parish.

Only one? Same is true for most parishes in Chicago and Detroit. I invite you to attend a Mass at Holy Name Cathedral one Sunday and see the police surrounding the church.

And don’t get me started on St Sabina.

 

[hadulzo]

Are you sure it is the diocese and not an order of priests that took over the church? In our city the Cardinal gave two different orders keys to run down churches in rough areas. One only has Tridentine masses, the other has both.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Martyrdom for the faith as I was taught - 60 years ago or so - meant that you were killed specifically because of your faith, meaning the executioner killed you specifically because of it.

Dying in a high crime neighborhood, where your executioner may be shooting you because you have the wrong color of skin, or because the executioner is trying to rob you, or because they are crazed on drugs and simply fires at you randomly, does not come under the definition of martyrdom.

It comes under the definition of lack of common sense.

No, I would be totally fine dying because of my faith, as in the other, older description of martyrdom, if someone were coming into a church for that reason, too.

I am not talking about a lack of common sense.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Are you sure it is the diocese and not an order of priests that took over the church? In our city the Cardinal gave two different orders keys to run down churches in rough areas. One only has Tridentine masses, the other has both.

The Archdiocese runs these parishes. There is an SSPX and CMRI parish in the area, but both are even further away and are unaffiliated with the Archdiocese from what I understand.

Again, I don’t want to make this about my particular area of the country, or even my personal decisions, as I believe this to be national issue across many geographies when it comes to safety and security. After what almost happened to the local Protestant church I mentioned earlier, I do honestly believe it is only a matter of time before jihadists or other extremists make similar attempts. Frankly, I don’t feel safe as this was too close to home to ignore.

I also believe it behooves the church at the grass-roots level to be proactive to mitigate against criminal and related activities when it comes to parish security. I also doubt that there would be top-down, long-range planning on these matters.

I don’t mean this as a criticism of the hierarchy, but more as a failure in priorities - I would be doubtful that these security matters are even on the radar as agenda items. They should be. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

People should feel safe going to church, if anywhere.

They have not attacked parishioners in church.

Do we really want to wait until that happens?

 

[billsannie]

A large police presence at a church, while alarming, would probably make an arm attack of any sort less likely.

For a number of sociological and historical reasons terrorist attacks, at least of the homegrown variety, are less likely in the US than in Europe.

Attacks from gangsters and other criminals are unlikely for the reasons others have cited.

That leaves nuts with high-powered guns acting on their own. Happily these are still few and far between.

So churches are likely the safest places, both physically and spiritually, to spend your Sunday.

Personally, I think if your TLM attracts a large enough crowd to interest a would-be attacker that should be cause for joy rather than fear. Here in Texas, if an attacker were looking for a large crowd to shoot, Catholic and mainline Protestant churches would be way down on his list.

 

[LethalMouse]

First we have 24/7 news…

50 yrs ago you MAYBE read about a shooting in the paper a week later and said “Oh dang someone got shot”

Now 2.5 minutes into the situation we are freaking out because “HOW! HOW DO WE NOT KNOW HIS 3RD GRADE TEACHERS NAME ALREADY!!!” CONSPIRACY!!!

LOL, but in all seriousness it is not that bad…

And when I go to Mass we always have at least one armed guard

 

[StGerardMajella]

Personally, I think if your TLM attracts a large enough crowd to interest a would-be attacker that should be cause for joy rather than fear. Here in Texas, if an attacker were looking for a large crowd to shoot, Catholic and mainline Protestant churches would be way down on his list.

I think it would be the symbolism that would be their objective. It would strike “terror” in the hearts of Catholics.

Our typical Mass can have upwards of 50-75 people on any given Sunday, sometimes more for special events such as Christmas Eve Mass.

 

[LethalMouse]

I think it would be the symbolism that would be their objective. It would strike “terror” in the hearts of Catholics.

Our typical Mass can have upwards of 50-75 people on any given Sunday, sometimes more for special events such as Christmas Eve Mass.

Josh 1:9

 

[corsair]

Our 8:00am low Mass has about 175 attending and our 10:30am Sung High Mass has about 125 - 150 every Sunday. Weekday low Masses run about 75 folks.

 

[billsannie]

I think it would be the symbolism that would be their objective. It would strike “terror” in the hearts of Catholics.

Perhaps, but only if the shooter had very little ambition. It would make a vastly bigger impression to strike “terror” into the hearts of Southern Baptists or members of non-denominational megachurches. And they would be much, much easier to find to boot.

 

[otjm]

Okay, let’s look at numbers.

There are about 17,300 parishes in the U.S.

Assuming on 52 weekend Masses (skipping holy days and major feasts) and assuming an average of 2.5 Masses per weekend (some have more; some have only one):

That works out to 1 chance in 2,249,00 Masses per year that someone will be shot.

And I would willingly grant that there are areas of higher crime, lower crime, and essentially no crime, and that as a result, there is a higher risk than that.

But still…

As to armed guards; unless they are state certified, it is likely the police department and the local county prosecutor will be less than enthusiastic about the concept. While I fully support concealed carry if an individual has a goodly amount of firearms training, I am not in favor of someone doing so if they are not well trained. And you had best believe that if someone gets shot, there will be both an investigation by the county DA, relevant police agency(s), possibly by the Feds, and lawsuits enough to choke a horse.

Me - just my humble opinion, but I would go elsewhere.

 

[LethalMouse]

Okay, let’s look at numbers.

There are about 17,300 parishes in the U.S.

Assuming on 52 weekend Masses (skipping holy days and major feasts) and assuming an average of 2.5 Masses per weekend (some have more; some have only one):

That works out to 1 chance in 2,249,00 Masses per year that someone will be shot.

And I would willingly grant that there are areas of higher crime, lower crime, and essentially no crime, and that as a result, there is a higher risk than that.

But still…

As to armed guards; unless they are state certified, it is likely the police department and the local county prosecutor will be less than enthusiastic about the concept. While I fully support concealed carry if an individual has a goodly amount of firearms training, I am not in favor of someone doing so if they are not well trained. ** And you had best believe that if someone gets shot, there will be both an investigation by the county DA, relevant police agency(s), possibly by the Feds, and lawsuits enough to choke a horse.**

Me - just my humble opinion, but I would go elsewhere.

Depends on where you live and the totality of the situation. Unfortunately Catholics in numbers congregate in large cities… (which is odd given God’s tendency to dislike such) and then embody the urban dependency and followership.

In some areas however independence and functionality are more accepted. In my state there were some floods recently and when some looting started the citizens formed armed patrols and the sheriffs approved.

If a legit anti religion terrorist comes in to shoot em up in your church and a person stops them with 30-200 or so witnesses… the stopper will be fine via the law and if not martyrdom is pretty high value in out faith lol.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Okay, let’s look at numbers.

You only cite the U.S. Take a close look worldwide, as the Church is not based solely in the U.S.

Look at what has happened in the last 5 weeks in the U.S. and France, and then take a close look at how Christians are being treated in the Middle East in Iraq, Syria, etc. What is happening there is already starting to happen here.

 

[otjm]

You only cite the U.S. Take a close look worldwide, as the Church is not based solely in the U.S.

Look at what has happened in the last 5 weeks in the U.S. and France, and then take a close look at how Christians are being treated in the Middle East in Iraq, Syria, etc. What is happening there is already starting to happen here.

I don’t recall any churches being shot up in the last 5 weeks.

I am aware of what has been going on in the Middle East for quite some time, but that has not translated to the West; and I will say again, you are conflating two problems.

I would worry far, far more about a random shooting - either a drug war shooting in which someone nearby is shot, or someone is shot during a robbery - than I would about any group executions in a church by some nutcase.

I am also well aware of the jihadists and the guys who are completely off their rocker. Neither leaves me with any loss of sleep concerning going to church on a Sunday.

Yes, there is a lot happening in the world, particularly with the jihadists. But even for that, we are a secondary target; their primary targets are other Muslims. Mot of their mass killings of one another don’t make much of an impact on our news services.

 

[1ke]

You only cite the U.S. Take a close look worldwide, as the Church is not based solely in the U.S.

Look at what has happened in the last 5 weeks in the U.S. and France, and then take a close look at how Christians are being treated in the Middle East in Iraq, Syria, etc. What is happening there is already starting to happen here.

Go talk to your pastor.

None of us can give you permission to stop going to Mass. None of us can resolve your fears and worries. None of us can implement security at your parish.