Latin Mass in Economically Depressed Areas

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I posted a comment but it was inexplicably deleted.

To reiterate, the Latin Mass was always a cornerstone of male, working class spirituality in the British Isle (that includes Ireland). Cardinal Heenan of Westminster (Irish descent) famously stated that the abolition of the EF would produce a Church of women and girls. I think the EF needs to be in so-called economically depressed areas. It’ll bring working-class men back into the Church.

That is my personal opinion. If this is deleted for the second time, it is because the moderators hate freedom of speech.
 
I was actually thinking the exact same thing as you Pete, while I was reading the opening post. I highlighted the top part of your post, as I agree with it, and was thinking the same way as I was reading here.

I would rather die as a martyr if need be, in a church, expressing my faith there if I had to. I feel just like you do about it.

Although we may feel afraid in these scary times, we can’t be afraid to go out and do what we need to do in our lives.

We all have to know that we are people of faith, and that God knows what is going on, and that He is on our side. All that we can do is live the best life that we can, and trust in Him.

That is how I look at things. May God bless all of us.
I like your spirit. It is indeed about our faith and our spirituality.
 
Go talk to your pastor.
As I stated previously, this is not about my personal situation or circumstances. I don’t need anyone to “alleviate my fears”, and I am not “asking anyone to implement security at my parish”. (Not sure where you got that idea.)

I am well aware that the city to which I attend Mass has both a large population of potential jihadists, and a large population of gang members, drugs, and worse. Racial tensions are very high. This is true elsewhere around the country where the Latin Mass is placed in some of the worst neighborhoods as far as crime rates and potential extremism are concerned. This is a larger, macro problem.

I am asking what the Church - as a large, modern institution of worldwide scale - is doing on a macro level to combat these issues. We see how the State of Israel has handled these kinds of issues, and I think it will be only a matter of time before their practice of proactive defensive law enforcement - arm guards at the doors and profiling extensively - becomes the norm in the West.

I also don’t think it prudent to go with the “wait and see, it hasn’t happened here” philosophy. It is happening here. I have already cited examples, as have others.
 
I posted a comment but it was inexplicably deleted.

To reiterate, the Latin Mass was always a cornerstone of male, working class spirituality in the British Isle (that includes Ireland). Cardinal Heenan of Westminster (Irish descent) famously stated that the abolition of the EF would produce a Church of women and girls. I think the EF needs to be in so-called economically depressed areas. It’ll bring working-class men back into the Church.

That is my personal opinion. If this is deleted for the second time, it is because the moderators hate freedom of speech.
No, it’s because the moderators have posted some rules about derogatory comments concerning valid liturgies in the Church, and rules against pitting one form of the Mass against the other.

This is a privately run forum and they are free to establish whatever rules they choose.
 
I like your spirit. It is indeed about our faith and our spirituality.
Thanks, ProVobis.

I look at it as, “What else can we do,” you know?

We can stay inside, and if someone wants to, they can find a way to still harm something in one of our communities, like one of the grids, and so on. And there we are, all affected at home.

I am not trying to sound morbid, by any means. I just mean that we can’t control it all.

I just feel that the best thing that we “can control” is our faith life, and we can live that to the best of our ability. 🙂
 
Thanks, ProVobis.

I look at it as, “What else can we do,” you know?

We can stay inside, and if someone wants to, they can find a way to still harm something in one of our communities, like one of the grids, and so on. And there we are, all affected at home.

I am not trying to sound morbid, by any means. I just mean that we can’t control it all.

I just feel that the best thing that we “can control” is our faith life, and we can live that to the best of our ability. 🙂
👍 Now that’s common sense. :tiphat:
 
Depends on where you live and the totality of the situation. Unfortunately Catholics in numbers congregate in large cities… (which is odd given God’s tendency to dislike such) and then embody the urban dependency and followership.
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It isn’t terribly odd, as Catholics in America largely are immigrants and descendants of immigrants from the industrial age who came to America for employment prospects.

The large cities are where the jobs were, and that where the immigrants (largely Catholic) flocked to.
 
It isn’t terribly odd, as Catholics in America largely are immigrants and descendants of immigrants from the industrial age who came to America for employment prospects.

The large cities are where the jobs were, and that where the immigrants (largely Catholic) flocked to.
I didn’t mean odd in a scientific sense.

I mean if you look at the cities that look most like the cities of the Bible that God destroyed they are high Catholic with Catholics voting for these things to a degree. Or voting for the things in those lights.

Much of my distaste for my fellow catholcis is that their politics lie largley in line with those whom run the cities God would have burned in the OT.

I find it odd they reconcile themselves with their city living style and their religious views…

But hey some hate groups are Christian based and since Jesus was middle eastern I get really confused by Christian White supremacists… literally hurts my brain…

Anyway I digress lol. This post is born of the city mentality, and the mentality I feel is one that is part of decline of us. It is also in line with Catholics by the numbers and it makes me said 😦

And I note I was raised more city than not, so I am not a bumpkin thinking them there city folk is cray cray. And I don’t hate cities, I still feel quite easy in them and many I know from rural are shocked at my smooth transition if they lack such experience.

But also the same catholics will call me worldly… ironic because I can be rather wordly and not be sinning whereas they vote Soddom and Gomorrah and engage in pedestal grandstanding… I feel we need to compensate for ourselves if you are good you can talk bad because it is funny.

If you are bad you must talk good because if you talk bad it is to reveal your truth…
 
On a side note, why fear a church hate attack?

I mean Martyrdom is like a VIP pass to heaven no?
 
A little over a week ago, I warned the posters in this thread of the coming attacks on our churches. I was ignored, and pretty much ridiculed. I was told that churches were safe from violence.

This morning, a priest in Normandy, France, was brutally murdered and parishioners taken hostage during Mass.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, paranoid, or what have you. This is coming to the West, folks, and it is already here. I’ve asked before what the Church plans to do about this issue.

According to ABC News reporters, Brian McBride, Emily Shapiro, and Morgan Winsor:

"…The attack began when two people armed with knives entered a church in the city of Rouen, about 80 miles outside Paris, during morning Mass and took hostage six people — a priest, nuns and parishioners…One nun escaped and alerted police, who tried to start negotiations, the Paris prosecutor said.

The priest, who was 86 years old, was killed from stabs to the neck and torso, the Paris prosecutor said.

An 86-year-old worshiper was also stabbed, the Paris prosecutor said. The worshiper’s condition was not immediately disclosed.

One of the attackers had three knives, a handgun and a fake, aluminum-wrapped suicide vest, the Paris prosecutor said. The other attacker had a backpack with a fake explosive.

When the attackers went outside, they were shouting “Allahu akhbar,” the Paris prosecutor said, at which point they were “neutralized.” Both attackers were killed outside the church, said a representative for the French interior minister…"
 
A little over a week ago, I warned the posters in this thread of the coming attacks on our churches. I was ignored, and pretty much ridiculed. I was told that churches were safe from violence.

This morning, a priest in Normandy, France, was brutally murdered and parishioners taken hostage during Mass.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, paranoid, or what have you. This is coming to the West, folks, and it is already here. I’ve asked before what the Church plans to do about this issue.
As a European, I should like to respond to this as I think you have mischaracterised pretty much everything.

The issue you raised was what level of security should exist. You wrote.
At what point does it become unsafe to attend Mass under these circumstances? Given the recent events in our media, happening both in the U.S. but also in Europe, shouldn’t our churches have armed guards at the doors to prevent attacks, similar to how some holy sites in Israel are guarded by armed guards?
If churches fail to put in place these measures, is the church being reckless given all of the recent violence as demonstrated daily in the national media? Do I have an obligation to protect my family and not attend Mass if this is the case?
To propose that the situation in the United States is parallel to the situation as it is in Israel is delusional.

In America, you have experienced incidents of gun violence, as at the church in South Carolina…but to propose that every church in the United States therefore should have armed guard or that people should cease to attend Mass because there is some statistical prospect of harm, the response is out of proportion; it is, frankly, irrational.

All that would be akin to saying I am never going to use an automobile or train because there have been mishaps with fatalities. There have been with elevators and escalators, too. Of course, having said that I don’t back into the elevator on the off chance the cab isn’t there or is not flush with the landing…I look before I step off into it.

Banks get robbed but I don’t refrain from using them because they do.

As it was, I was surprised by the amount and type of security I would encounter throughout the United States when it seemed out of proportion…often in venues that seemed to make little sense. Hopefully, the jobs provided a pleasant employ for the hired security.

Are there churches that should hire security? Doubtless there are. But they are surely statistically insignificant and it would be a decision of the parish priest and the diocesan bishop.

The death of this priest is assuredly a tragedy…for his village, for France as well as for Europe. On the other hand, as a priest, I certainly do not feel any need to take any more precaution, personally, tomorrow than I did yesterday.

Could I, as a priest, be the victim of a radicalised person? Yes, it is certainly not completely outside the realm of possibility. I could more likely be the victim of a robbery attempt gone awry…or the victim of someone having a medical crisis and losing control of their car and my life being taken in that way…or the victim of someone in a spell of lunacy, such as was that madwoman who assaulted Pope Benedict some years ago. I don’t see myself in need of armed guard because, in the whole of the EU, individual persons fall victim to these freakish occurrences or because I cannot discount that this could happen to me.

As for the response you say you received about churches being safe from violence…no place is safe from violence. One can be the victim of a home invasion or other violent crime in one’s own home. One could be blown up in one’s auto. One could be felled by a sniper. One could also be struck by meteorite, for that matter.

One can take rational, measured responses to real threats that one actually faces. I remember many years ago visiting Saint Patrick’s Cathedral. They had police that were present, right at hand for the distribution of Communion, because there had been a demonstration of some sort that had occurred in the cathedral during Mass in which there was the deliberate desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.

The response seemed at least reasonable for that particular cathedral as it was evident that the whole incident was profoundly traumatic for the community of the cathedral…but I never saw such a response replicated elsewhere in the United States because there had been one incident in one American cathedral, however, and the fact that it happened did not cause me to think that was something that should be implemented where I minister.

In Europe, the synagogues often have enhanced security…which is understandable in light of the particular actual threats they face and the historical realities that we remember…all too well. There are churches where in Europe there is extra security…Saint Peter’s Basilica being a prime example. A Church just a couple of blocks away, however, has none. And I neither think there is need for it nor would I be supportive of it. I do think the issue of radicalisation does need effective address. I also think there are issues, personal to us, that we have to address regarding realities particular to Europe.
 
On a side note, why fear a church hate attack?

I mean Martyrdom is like a VIP pass to heaven no?
Acknowledging that there is the crown of martyrdom in eternity is indeed to look on the positive side of the issue.
 
This thread, dear ones, makes hard reading, when I realised that the early posts were before the atrocity in France yesterday.

I personally have never been more relieved to live in a very remote rural area of Ireland. Sure that are petty feuds etc and crimes of violence locally but never anything like what we are seeing in the news every day

Surely each must make their own decision and their own peace on all of this? Not seeking martyrdom we are taught.

Last week, Dover port was gridlocked and queues for many many hours because of increased security measures . My thought was that it was unwise of families to go ahead with needless holidays given the horrors in Nice. There is a balance between giving in to threats and being prudent, especially when there are children involved. We are getting horror reports from those who made the wrong choice re travelling to Turkey.

These are hard and increasingly dangerous and uncertain times. The huge influx of unmonitored refugees into eg Germany and Greece will have increasing consequences.

And the utter horror of the attack in Church in France appalls. It has opened a whole new chapter … Maybe read some of the Irish news sites?

Easy for me; I am old and in poor health and can no longer attend Mass in person. But if I were able and thought there was real danger? I would stay home… No use to God dead.
 
I said it earlier in the thread and I’ll say it again.

Sometimes it’s easier to pack some heat concealed than try to change the world. Trust in God and remember that you’re as prepared as you can be.
 
As a European, I should like to respond to this as I think you have mischaracterised pretty much everything.
It’s the long-term trajectory that is most troubling.

We have active jihadists in the metro area, and a large racial divide between African-Americans and whites.
To propose that the situation in the United States is parallel to the situation as it is in Israel is delusional.
We could learn an awful lot from the Israelis when it comes to preventing acts of terrorism.
As for the response you say you received about churches being safe from violence…no place is safe from violence.
Agreed. However, one armed guard at the front doors of the church may have deterred or even possibly stopped the French priest from being beheaded.

Britain and France are apparently stepping up security in and around churches now. It will only be a matter of time before we do the same here nationwide.
One can take rational, measured responses to real threats that one actually faces.
I would hope we do more to protect our churches, priests, and parishioners.
 
Acknowledging that there is the crown of martyrdom in eternity is indeed to look on the positive side of the issue.
There is no positive side. Next you will all be seeking martyrdom which is rightly forbidden
 
Jaw hits ground. Is that really how you see the murder of an old priest?
SO you specifically do not think that the priest is currently enjoying eternal bliss in heaven in the presence of God?

Corporeally I am not saying it is a great thing…like we should want killings daily or whatever.

But the level of fear held within many is a fear that is one representing a lack of trust and love in the Lord.

I hear far too many who are oh so fearful, both unto themselves (in a purely human logic way) and worst of all many who seem to lack any twinge of God.

With God there is no fear. I don’t mean no sense, no reactions. But not this over the top apocalyptic we can’t leave our homes, false, illogical, un-statistical fear that plagues a world of instant news.
For though I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will fear no evils, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they have comforted me.
 
There is no positive side. Next you will all be seeking martyrdom which is rightly forbidden
To seek it is to seek one’s own benefits. To gain glory and heavenly rewards.

To happen upon it is to be a true martyr and faithful servant of God. I am very much against sought martyrdom as it is less holy and more selfish in many ways. Also in most cases not going out of your way to die means you can have more positive holy impact on the world etc…

But the only way there is** nothing **positive to come of death is if we are either atheist or perhaps if we are hellbound?
 
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