Latin mass questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter philv
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
10thCrusader;10679260:
An interesting development is in the Papal Masses of Pope Francis, apparently, only communion on the tongue is allowed as shown in the video link below:

youtube.com/watch?v=TQEzm5bleGE
Also, it looks like only those assisting the wheelchair-bound were permitted to stand. Everyone else knelt to receive communion.

It looks like His Holiness is carrying on with the policies of Benedict XVI in this matter.

I wonder if it is that no one else is “permitted” to stand or that no one else needed to stand. I have to assume that the Pope understands that there are people that can’t or would at least have difficulty kneeling even though they aren’t in a wheel chair.
Good point Actually, I believe standing has always been allowed for those who are unable to kneel.

Marjyk, - to the propaganda comment, It is not just Pope Francis who gives only on the tongue; his Sacred ministers assisting were also only permitting communion on the tongue. Perhaps you missed this in the video. And this is a new development. The initial Masses he presided over were very large, and he was very new. Apparently, this is not the only video out there on this issue. I posted this one because it is very short. There are other instances where communion in the hand is not permitted at Papal Masses.
 
The video is propaganda, Maryjk.
Good point Actually, I believe standing has always been allowed for those who are unable to kneel.

Marjyk, - to the propaganda comment, It is not just Pope Francis who gives only on the tongue; his Sacred ministers assisting were also only permitting communion on the tongue. Perhaps you missed this in the video. And this is a new development. The initial Masses he presided over were very large, and he was very new. Apparently, this is not the only video out there on this issue. I posted this one because it is very short. There are other instances where communion in the hand is not permitted at Papal Masses.
My comment was solely concerning standing vs. kneeling. And really, that was all I was commenting on.

I would prefer to stay out of both of your bickering. See, it really doesn’t matter to me. I receive in a way that is allowed by the Church. And I don’t question what others do, as long as they are receiving in a way that allowed by the Church.
 
My comment was solely concerning standing vs. kneeling. And really, that was all I was commenting on.

I would prefer to stay out of both of your bickering. See, it really doesn’t matter to me. I receive in a way that is allowed by the Church. And I don’t question what others do, as long as they are receiving in a way that allowed by the Church.
👍
 
I only like the Catholic way the best. When the church made adaptations over time, there were good practical reasons for them that people today ought to listen to. There is no good reason to bring back practices that proved abusive or unsanitary for people.
I am not sure if I am misunderstanding your comment about “the Catholic way” as the Catholic way is to distribute under both species, by Host and by Cup.

A couple of years ago, I came across a comment that the Center for Disease Control had found no incidence nationwide of communication of disease by use of the Cup.

That of course does not mean that it has never occurred; but there are no incidents of outbreak of disease (such as flu) traceable to reception from the Cup. Given how they can chase down outbreaks (such as intestinal problems due to wild animals defecating in vegetable fields), I find the silence interesting.

I am sure that some people truly do fear contamination. I also know enough about human nature to presume that some will use anything to put off the issue of something they dislike for reasons they don’t wish to say.

The Cup was reintroduced because the Church says it is a fuller sign of the Eucharist. It was an issue long thought out by people whose job it is to think them out.
 
While I knew that receiving while standing was the norm in the United States, I was completely unaware that it is the norm to receive in the hand as well. Could you please point me to a source that actually states that receiving in the hand is the norm in the United States?
GIRM, Section 160: " The Priest then takes the paten or ciborium and approaches the communicants, who usually come up in procession.

It is not permitted for the faithful to take the consecrated Bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them on from one to another among themselves. The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91).

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. "

The quote does not establish either as the norm. The universal norm is COTT; the US Conference has received permission for CITH and while that finally may be up to the individual bishop, I am not aware of any diocese where it is not permitted; and given the permission in the GIRM, I would presume the GIRM would control.

Perhaps it would be better said that CITH has been permitted to the US Conference.
 
How about intinction to put an end to these battles?
Intinction is not really the issue. Pope Francis only gave Holy Communion by intinction to the Sacred Ministers (ordained Deacons and Priests) only who distributed Holy Communion at his inaugural Mass, and the Sacred Ministers gave Holy Communion to the Faithful by the Host only. At the inaugural Mass, there were hundreds of Sacred Ministers, so it is likely that some of them are accustomed to giving Holy Communion in the hand and had not received new instructions yet. However, after reviewing the videotapes available, the vast majority of the Faithful received on the tongue.

Since then, Holy Communion at the Papal Masses has been Communion on the Tongue only and kneeling (with the previous exceptions mentioned).

I don’t see His Holiness changing the policies of Benedict XVI any time soon. If anything, he is constraining the innovations even further for Holy Communion.
 
No, CITH is not a new rite. It is a “practice touching the worship of God”. This means that the Sovereign Pontiff alone had the right to recognize and establish it.
As Brother JR has noted in a different thread, the issue of whether or not the bishops of the Netherlands were “disobedient” was split among Canonists. As Canon lawyers were divided as to whether or not the bishops had to first appeal to Rome, and Canon lawyers are far more trained in Church law than the vast majority of members of Catholic Answers Forum, perhaps the issue should be resolved in charity. And charity would indicate that one does not go around calling bishops “dissident” or “disobedient” when Canon lawyers, trained in the matters, cannot agree.

This issue has been going round and round far longer than Catholic Answers has been in existence. It is one of the constant issues dredged up by Traditionalists who are anywhere from mildly perturbed about the matter to those trying to indicate that it is a major sacrilegious and highly immoral act. Rome has acted. No one is required to receive CITH. That should end the matter, but it never seems to.

It may well be impossible, unless one is a certified historian doing legitimate historical research, to find if permission was given to one or more bishops individually (as opposed to a conference or group of bishops all at once) in 1969 as such may have been direct communication only between the Pope and the individual bishop, and the permission given not otherwise published publicly. At which point, the discussion or the search for such documents becomes useless. That does not mean that none was/were granted; only that it may not be public information and thus not capable of being found in publicly accessible places.
 
Intinction is not really the issue. Pope Francis only gave Holy Communion by intinction to the Sacred Ministers (ordained Deacons and Priests) only who distributed Holy Communion at his inaugural Mass, and the Sacred Ministers gave Holy Communion to the Faithful by the Host only. At the inaugural Mass, there were hundreds of Sacred Ministers, so it is likely that some of them are accustomed to giving Holy Communion in the hand and had not received new instructions yet. However, after reviewing the videotapes available, the vast majority of the Faithful received on the tongue.

Since then, Holy Communion at the Papal Masses has been Communion on the Tongue only and kneeling (with the previous exceptions mentioned).

I don’t see His Holiness changing the policies of Benedict XVI any time soon. If anything, he is constraining the innovations even further for Holy Communion.
Given the issue of foot washing on Holy Thursday, it would be my advice to not bet money on that last paragraph unless it was spare change.😊

And at least some of us have seen the picture of Benedict 16 distributing CITH posted on another thread.
 
Given the issue of foot washing on Holy Thursday, it would be my advice to not bet money on that last paragraph unless it was spare change.😊

And at least some of us have seen the picture of Benedict 16 distributing CITH posted on another thread.
I was thinking of that too. In the beginning, Benedict XVI was giving holy Communion in the hand. Then about 2008, he started giving Holy Communion on the tongue only. I wonder what change his mind?

There is a parallel here. In the inaugural Mass of Pope Frances, some Ministers were giving Holy Communion in the hand, but in ensuing Papal Masses, the Ministers had apparently received instruction to give Holy Communion on the tongue only as shown in the previous video link (at 9-10 sec):
youtube.com/watch?v=TQEzm5bleGE

This seems pretty typical after the election of a new Pope: they let things go for a little bit, and then they start cracking down. I guess I didn’t expect Pope Francis to start cracking down so fast.
 
I was thinking of that too. In the beginning, Benedict XVI was giving holy Communion in the hand. Then about 2008, he started giving Holy Communion on the tongue only. I wonder what change his mind?
I believe it was about that time when the Pope started to distribute communion only to a predetermined group of people. Seems like when you have a random group of Catholics, there is bound to be one or two people who will test the legalities and preferences of a bishop, a priest, or anyone else distributing communion. You can’t really fault the Pope, a bishop, or a priest when someone is standing in front of them insisting on communion in the hand and will not budge. What’s he supposed to do? It’s sad when some people value their rights more than Whom they’re receiving.
 
I believe it was about that time when the Pope started to distribute communion only to a predetermined group of people. Seems like when you have a random group of Catholics, there is bound to be one or two people who will test the legalities and preferences of a bishop, a priest, or anyone else distributing communion. You can’t really fault the Pope, a bishop, or a priest when someone is standing in front of them insisting on communion in the hand and will not budge. What’s he supposed to do? It’s sad when some people value their rights more than Whom they’re receiving.
I think you are probably right about this. During the inaugural Mass of Pope Francis, there were hundreds of priests and deacons as Ministers of Holy Communion. For the most part, they gave Holy Communion on the tongue, but there were some who permitted Holy Communion in the hand.

Considering the number of Ministers, it’s not surprising there were a few slip-ups, and this can’t really be interpreted as a policy statement of Pope Francis - especially considering it was his inaugural Mass. How much direction could he have given before that?

It seems that there is a more clear direction from the Pope now as it is required to receive Holy Communion on the tongue at the Papal Masses, however much they want to stick out their hand.
 
Considering the number of Ministers, it’s not surprising there were a few slip-ups, and this can’t really be interpreted as a policy statement of Pope Francis - especially considering it was his inaugural Mass. How much direction could he have given before that?
In what language? Many people receiving at the Papal Masses don’t speak Italian, Latin, Spanish, English, and so forth. It’s much easier for one’s local pastor to announce before Mass that communion is to be received only at the communion rail and on the tongue. And to let the ushers know if one isn’t able to walk up to the rail.
 
In what language? Many people receiving at the Papal Masses don’t speak Italian, Latin, Spanish, English, and so forth. It’s much easier for one’s local pastor to announce before Mass that communion is to be received only at the communion rail and on the tongue. And to let the ushers know if one isn’t able to walk up to the rail.
My point is: It’s the Pope’s inaugural Mass. He hadn’t really had a chance to say anything about a policy of Holy Communion on the tongue only. I believe everyone assumed that they would just follow along with the previous policy of Benedict XVI. Obviously, some of the priests giving communion at the inaugural Mass had assumed otherwise and gave Holy Communion in the hand - be reasonable - there were hundreds of priests. There were bound to be a few mistakes. These things happen, and it doesn’t indicate a major policy change.
 
There are many in the church today who dabble in the heresy of archeologism which means that we all must go back to the early church to be right in things. That is not true because the Holy Spirit is with the church all the time and not just in the early church. There were abuses in the early church, too. Just read the scriptures and you will find drunkeness and squabbles and divisions and all sorts of things going on that had to be severely reprimanded by the apostles. There have been heresies in the early church and break away groups like the gnostics and other groups from within that caused problems. The purpose of the councils was to clarify doctrine and settle troubles within the church so the church goes on and does not stop at the fourth century or so. The only reason liberals like to go back to the beginning is so they can reinvent the church to suit liberal agenda before the early councils dealth with things or before certain doctrines were clarified. It is an evil ploy to destroy the church from within. One example is that deaconesses in the early church were not actually ordained people but women who helped out in service to the church such as in female baptisms and works of charity,etc. They were not ordained clergy at all. The orthodox swear to that also. In the early church there were not nuns yet so the deaconesses predated the nuns in service to the church. Today, nuns should do all this work and we should not need deaconesses now. It is the fault of liberals taking over after the council that caused the lack of vocations. Liberal clergy pushed things that the council never even mentioned and certainly did not authorize, and depending on the ignorance of many laity, were able to push forth practices that caused terrible problems in the church and much division, etc. People need to study church history better so as to be able to defend the faith and stand up to people who defy doctrine and yet stay in the church without any correction at all. The purpose of a magisterium is to keep the church stable and solid in its teachings, otherwise, the church will split up like the protestants do and there would be no centrality or focus.
 
There are many in the church today who dabble in the heresy of archeologism which means that we all must go back to the early church to be right in things. That is not true because the Holy Spirit is with the church all the time and not just in the early church.
What is also not true is that there is no value in going back to the early Church to review how the church worshiped and prayed. One example is the reinstatement of the RCIA program, and while its implementation could be more even, the Church has felt it to be a very valuable addition. It is far too easy to simply write off liturgical scholarship as the “work of liberals” simply because one either does not understand why something has been changed (usually a sign that one does not like change, and therefore it is not good).
There were abuses in the early church, too. Just read the scriptures and you will find drunkeness and squabbles and divisions and all sorts of things going on that had to be severely reprimanded by the apostles. There have been heresies in the early church and break away groups like the gnostics and other groups from within that caused problems.
That, however, is not a reason to avoid reviewing liturgical practices.

The purpose of the councils was to clarify doctrine and settle troubles within the church so the church goes on and does not stop at the fourth century or so. The only reason liberals like to go back to the beginning is so they can reinvent the church to suit liberal agenda before the early councils dealth with things or before certain doctrines were clarified. That almost appears to be a slam on 100 years of scholarship. I presume you do not mean to paint anyone who has studied liturgy as a liberal; it is for certain the Church has not done so.
It is an evil ploy to destroy the church from within. One example is that deaconesses in the early church were not actually ordained people but women who helped out in service to the church such as in female baptisms and works of charity,etc. They were not ordained clergy at all. The orthodox swear to that also. In the early church there were not nuns yet so the deaconesses predated the nuns in service to the church. Today, nuns should do all this work and we should not need deaconesses now.
I presume you mean sisters, as nuns are cloistered. Unless one is doing full immersion baptism, there is no need for anyone’s involvement, and there are probably ways of handling full immersion without needing some individual’s involvement. It is the fault of liberals taking over after the council that caused the lack of vocations. That is simply nonsense. It is a post hoc, ergo propter hoc statement without any supporting evidence whatsoever, and ignores everything else that was impacting the Church after Vatican 2. Furthermore, worldwide vocations are up significantly and they are dealing with Vatican 22; just not having to deal with what Europe and North America have had to deal with, which was secularism and the moral degradation that has occurred - and not caused by Vatican 2.
Liberal clergy pushed things that the council never even mentioned and certainly did not authorize, and depending on the ignorance of many laity, were able to push forth practices that caused terrible problems in the church and much division, etc.
Granted. Interestingly, places like Poland implemented the documents of Vatican 2 with minimal problems.

Your worry about liberals is about thirty to forty years late and ignores that things have been turning around. Granted that it is slow, but most things in the Church occur slowly. The JP2 priests are having an impact; the liberal clergy for the large part have either died off or are retiring, and the newer priests simply don’t have the older generation’s agenda.
 
Are there some parts of the Church which cannot change, no matter what the moment in time? Are there others that do change? Grow and die out seasonally? Is the Tridentine Mass capable of being unchanged until the end of Time? :confused:
 
Are there some parts of the Church which cannot change, no matter what the moment in time? Are there others that do change? Grow and die out seasonally? Is the Tridentine Mass capable of being unchanged until the end of Time? :confused:
Doctrine cannot change; however, it can be stated differently. If one uses scholastic language to speak of a doctrine (or morals), one may have problems if the matters are restated in a different language (e.g. phenomenology). That does not mean the doctrine has changed.

Throughout history, there have been changes to the Mass. What we know as the Tridentine Mass (referred to as the Extrordinary Form) consists of prayers and rubrics or laws. The laws are not immutable, and have been changed over time; so also the prayers. Some have very ancient lineage; others are newer.

So, for example, there is nothing particular about the EF that would not allow, say, a third reading as we have in the OF. Nor is there anything to say that certain rubrics could not be changed, although some may be very ancient.

The likelihood of much of anything happening to the EF any time soon is probably somewhere between extremely low and non-existent; but that is not to say that it cannot be done; rather, that it most likely will not be done.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top