Latin Mass: Why?

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dean24us

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First off, I realize that this question might offend some – all I can say is that I am not seeking do make anyone angry, but rather to better understand the way my fellow Catholics think.

I am trying to figure out why some Catholics are drawn to Latin mass. I realize Latin was the language of culture in the Roman Empire, hence the reason it was adopted for use in the Catholic church and continues to be used in the Church’s hierarchy out of tradition (small ‘t’). But in modern times, very few people know fluent Latin (presumably including laypersons which attend Latin mass), since Latin is essentially a dead language outside of the Church (except occasional use in law and science, but I wouldn’t classify these as using Latin as a full-fledged language). At best, people know a few key phrases here and there, but IMO not enough to actually understand the mass in its entirety. Consequently, it seems to me that unless a person has memorized the entire mass (including readings) before hand, a person is listening to a lot of ‘pleasing sounds’ that make no sense, similar to how a non-Italian speaking person would be if they were watching an Italian opera.

So, my questions for readers of this post… Do you attend Latin mass? And if so, do you understand everything being said, and what do you feel you get from Latin mass that you couldn’t get from ordinary mass?

Best wishes,
Dean
 
You assume the readings and homily are in Latin, which is not correct.

And you assume people don’t know what the prayers mean, again incorrect.
 
1ke said:
You assume the readings and homily are in Latin, which is not correct.

And you assume people don’t know what the prayers mean, again incorrect.
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Thanks for clarifying regarding the homily and readings – I wasn’t aware of that point. Regarding you other point, I didn’t mean to imply SOME people don’t understand the prayers, but I hard a very hard time believing that few people raised post Vatican II know enough Latin to fully grasp what is being said. However, I don’t have any empirical evidence on this point, so I’m willing to be persuaded if you can point me to information on the subject.

Your post didn’t address the most important point regarding my post: what do you feel you get from Latin mass that you don’t get from an ordinary mass?

Dean
 
Why are some people attracted to churches with good choirs?

Why are some people attracted to churches with a good homilist?

Why are some people attracted to churches that regularly incorporate incense and other external trappings into the service?

Why are some people attracted to churches that have coffee and doughnuts and good fellowship after Mass?

Why are some people attracted to churches that have 24-hr Adoration, or a strong religious ed program, or rosary before Mass, or an enthusiastic, involved congregation?

You can’t always put it into words, but even though the weight of one Mass might be equal to the weight of another Mass, people definitely have things they’re attracted to.

When I lived in the DFW area, I really enjoyed High Masses. The choir provided excellent Gregorian chant that really got me in the mental mood for church and worship. The FSSP priests tended to give much meatier, more scholarly homilies than I obtained elsewhere, and having that extra depth was very appealing. The incense, the precision, the way the priests and altar servers performed their duties— again, it really contributed to the atmosphere. It was very ritualistic and appealing. The FSSP congregation was so tight-knit, they were able to put together their own parish (after I left). It was cool to see so many Catholics together who took their faith so seriously, and made it a priority, and worked together to Make Stuff Happen for everyone’s benefit.

Was it ideal? No-- being able to hear everything that goes on is important to me. It was tough adjusting to a deliberately-quiet priest murmuring the prayers at one point in the Mass, while the Gregorian chant was elsewhere at a different point. Not being able to receive under both species was another difficult point for me. Low Masses lacked a lot of the atmosphere that I looked forward to at High Mass.

I had about three or four churches that I tended to visit when I needed different things from them. I went to one because it was conveniently located across the street from my workplace, and was good for lunch-hour Mass… not so good for Confession. I went to another because the homilist was funny and memorable. I went to a third because it had a married Episcopal-priest convert, who had an interesting perspective due to his background, a parish full of low-to-middle-income Catholic families that were really inspiring in their own way, and I loved how often they used the incense. And I went to Latin Mass when I was in the mood for what I described above.

–edit-- I got a pity-pass on Latin I and II in undergrad. 😛 So while I definitely wouldn’t consider myself fluent, I also certainly wasn’t lost. Readings were in Latin and English, and homilies were always in English. And bilingual Missals helped fill in all the rest. 🙂
 
In addition to what others have said, there are Latin/English missals. So you can follow along during mass.
 
I am 2 young to have attended the mass in Latin but in college I joined a Pius V group for about 2 years and this is what I miss from that Mass when I returned to the NOVUS ORDO.
  1. The Beautiful Vestments
  2. The Incensing of the alter every mass
  3. the Last Gospel
  4. The symbolism of every action such as raising the vestment by the alter servers during the confietor
The new changes in the mass starting this Advent returns the prayers that were changed during Vatican 2. This is exciting for me and the prayers bring more meaning and depth.

As for understanding the prayers: as an alter server in the Pius V group I know which prayers I was saying in Latin in English but the Latin was not fully understand. I will admit that but it was so beautiful. I am sure with time I would of learned Latin.

The whole point of using Latin was because it was a dead language and the words meant 1 thing.
 
I think the Ordinary of the Mass is pretty common knowlege. I knew what nearly all of it meant just from singing in my public high school’s choir. Most churches I’ve been to have been known to occasionally sing parts of the ordinary in Latin. You pick it up after a while. When you go to a Latin Mass, you can read the parts you don’t know in the missal.
 
dean24us said:
So, my questions for readers of this post… Do you attend Latin mass?
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There is not currently a Latin Mass (EF or OF) near enough for me to attend. But I attended Mass in Latin when I was younger and when I travel to dioceses where it is more available.
And if so, do you understand everything being said,
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Yes.
and what do you feel you get from Latin mass that you couldn’t get from ordinary mass?
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I wouldn’t say I “get more” from an EF Mass than an OF Mass. It is more a personal preference. I like the structure of Mass, the reverence, the history and tradition.

I don’t see Mass as a place to “get” something. I find it easier to give something of myself, to participate, at the EF Mass.
 
@Corki, thanks! That was the word I was blanking on-- “tradition”.

The cool thing about the Catholic Mass is that it doesn’t matter if you hear it in Spanish, or in Polish, or in French— you know you’re taking part in the exact same thing that’s taking place throughout the rest of the world.

With the Tridentine Rite, you get the same sort of feeling— but on top of that, there’s definitely a sense of being united to history through the traditional form that you don’t quite get elsewhere. Or at least, being united to history from 1570-1969. 😉
 
I’ve never been to an EF Mass, but I have been to an OF Latin Mass a couple of times and do enjoy it, but I wouldn’t say it’s the Latin language that makes me enjoy it, but rather other things.

For example, the incense, the beautiful voice of the cantor, the veils worn by women, the quiet before and after Mass, the beautiful old church, the altar rail.

I kind of like the "ancient’ feel of Latin. I don’t know, it just sounds nice to me.

However, I like English Masses as well. I don’t think I would want to attend a Latin one every Sunday, but it’s nice once in a while.
 
I attend the Traditional Latin Mass on Saturdays and Sundays and the NO Mass Monday-Friday.

I have a great love for the NO Mass–when done correctly, there is a lot of beauty in the Mass no matter what language the Mass is said in and there are a great deal of graces that flow from the altar at NO and TLM Masses. The problem I think with the NO is that a lot of times Sancrosanctum Concillium (Vatican II document on the liturgy) was personally interpreted and each parish “did their own thing”. I would say that things are beginning to settle down and people are coming back to a more reverent NO Mass.

What I love the most about the TLM is the mystical beauty of it. The idea behind the Mass is that people align their prayers behind the prayer of the priest, who is acting in persona Christi on behalf of the people. The priest faces liturgical East, offering the sacrifice to the Lord and not the people. When it is completely about offering the prayer of the priest and not our own as the congregation, it becomes less important that we hear and understand absolutely every single word the priest says. Yes, it is very good to know the prayers he is praying, and that is why there are Missals and Missalettes that most parishes celebrating the TLM have. I have found when we are unable to physically understand what is happen, it allows the soul to take over and understand the mystery (although not fully) behind the Mass. Also, the TLM requires a more active participation on the part of the faithful. I will explain: when I attend a NO Mass, I know the responses and the gestures and I could probably do them in my sleep. I try to be as reverent as possible, but I am guilty of going on “auto pilot” during the Mass. When I attend the TLM, I don’t know everything that is going on, so I am being aware of everything that is happening as well as *praying *through the Mass. It requires concentration to be able to follow along with the Mass.

I think one of the most common things I have heard as an argument against the TLM is the unity argument. It usually travels along the lines of “But, when we celebrate Mass in our language proper* we are united as a community.” This is a nice statement, but the Church extends WAY farther than our community. The TLM reflects unity in two different ways, both greater than the unity from our language proper. The first is that we are united to our brothers and sisters all around the globe who are also celebrating the exact same Mass as we are–not the same idea, but the exact very words. The second way we are united is with the Church throughout history. When we celebrate the TLM, we are united with all the people who went to Mass before the NO–the (almost) same Mass as the one that St Faustina, St Augustine, St Catherine of Siena, and countless other saints attended. How is that for unity? Last, the thing about Latin being a “dead language” is precisely why it is beautiful! When we say things in English, we are constantly needing to revise our statements because the frequent use of the words changes the meaning. For example, a statement about retarded people would have meant nothing rude or be politically incorrect in the 70s, but now would be extremely offensive because that word means something else. The same logic can be applied to words that would more directly affect the Mass. The “dead language” preserves the meaning and the beauty of that meaning for the sole purpose of the Mass.

I hinted at the other most common argument, but I want to explain it a little more. It is that people desire to be able to understand the Mass more, and are able to do so when it is spoken in our language proper. This depends on how we are to understand the Mass. If we want to understand what the priest is saying physically, it is most likely easier in the language proper. But, to truly understand the Mass as fully as humanly possible, we must feed our souls. When we are unable to physically understand what is being said, we allow our souls to become the primary investigator and understand the mass at a spiritual level. The mysterium fidei is revealed within our hearts and with the added silence of the Mass, our hearts are able to digest that mystery through prayer.

I could talk about the Latin Mass all day! Like I said, I love the NO Mass and if that is where I wind up on a Sunday I’m not going to complain, but once you begin to learn more about the Latin Mass, it is hard to stay away! I will definitely admit that before I ever went to my first Latin Mass, I thought it would be really weird and strange and full of a bunch of old people (I’m 21). I was so pleasantly surprised to find an array of old and young people! If you want to know more, I would highly recommend going to a TLM just to try it.

I would also recommend to you a book entitled “The Latin Mass Explained” by George Moorman. It is an excellent resource if you are seriously wondering and would like to know more!

*The wording language proper is used to refer to the language that is used in that country. I don’t mean proper to mean correct, but rather specific. I didn’t want to confuse you…I’m not really sure that there is a good word to use.
 
dean24us said:
First off, I realize that this question might offend some – all I can say is that I am not seeking do make anyone angry, but rather to better understand the way my fellow Catholics think.

I am trying to figure out why some Catholics are drawn to Latin mass. I realize Latin was the language of culture in the Roman Empire, hence the reason it was adopted for use in the Catholic church and continues to be used in the Church’s hierarchy out of tradition (small ‘t’). But in modern times, very few people know fluent Latin (presumably including laypersons which attend Latin mass), since Latin is essentially a dead language outside of the Church (except occasional use in law and science, but I wouldn’t classify these as using Latin as a full-fledged language). At best, people know a few key phrases here and there, but IMO not enough to actually understand the mass in its entirety. Consequently, it seems to me that unless a person has memorized the entire mass (including readings) before hand, a person is listening to a lot of ‘pleasing sounds’ that make no sense, similar to how a non-Italian speaking person would be if they were watching an Italian opera.

So, my questions for readers of this post… Do you attend Latin mass? And if so, do you understand everything being said, and what do you feel you get from Latin mass that you couldn’t get from ordinary mass?

Best wishes,
Dean
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As a Catholic, I am familiar with the entire Mass in both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms. As an elementary school student, I was taught all the prayers of the Mass in both Latin and English. I assist the Extraordinary Form (in Latin) on most Sundays and attend a very reverently-offered Ordinary Form Mass (in English) on most weekdays.

In my opinion, the structure of the Extraordinary Form with its tight rubrics and formal language make for a more solemn and prayerful worship experience. The faithful and the priest unite and focus their hearts, minds and voices on the worship and glorification of God.

Within the context of the EF Mass, the modernist attitude of self-congratulation is entirely absent. Those who frequent the the EF charitably reserve “fellowship” for the parish hall or parking lot, leaving the church interior for those who wish to offer silent thanksgiving after Mass.
 
At best, people know a few key phrases here and there, but IMO not enough to actually understand the mass in its entirety.
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The entirety of the Mass is Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ’s true presence on the holy altar offering Himself for us to God the Father. The liturgy is not a sports game, you don’t have to know the ins-and-outs of “play” to attend Mass and understand what is going on… the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Holy Cross re-presented to us in an un-bloody manner for the purpose of sanctification and thanksgiving.
 
dean24us said:
First off, I realize that this question might offend some – all I can say is that I am not seeking do make anyone angry, but rather to better understand the way my fellow Catholics think.

I am trying to figure out why some Catholics are drawn to Latin mass. I realize Latin was the language of culture in the Roman Empire, hence the reason it was adopted for use in the Catholic church and continues to be used in the Church’s hierarchy out of tradition (small ‘t’). But in modern times, very few people know fluent Latin (presumably including laypersons which attend Latin mass), since Latin is essentially a dead language outside of the Church (except occasional use in law and science, but I wouldn’t classify these as using Latin as a full-fledged language). At best, people know a few key phrases here and there, but IMO not enough to actually understand the mass in its entirety. Consequently, it seems to me that unless a person has memorized the entire mass (including readings) before hand, a person is listening to a lot of ‘pleasing sounds’ that make no sense, similar to how a non-Italian speaking person would be if they were watching an Italian opera.

So, my questions for readers of this post… Do you attend Latin mass? And if so, do you understand everything being said, and what do you feel you get from Latin mass that you couldn’t get from ordinary mass?

Best wishes,
Dean
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I do not fully understand Latin, but I am learning. As to what I get from the Traditional Mass … that’s not important. The Mass is supposed to be about **giving ** more than receiving. Consider the four main purposes of assisting at Mass:
1.Adoration- acknowledging our dependence on God.
2.Giving praise and thanks for all He has given us.
3.Giving reparation for our sins
4.Asking for the grace needed for our salvation.
Three out of the four involve giving to God what is God’s. Furthermore, the Latin Mass does a much better job of showing that it’s about offering a sacrifice to God, ultimately a sacrifice of ourselves.
So you see, my presence at the Traditional Mass is not about me at all. It’s about God. 🙂
 
I have started to attend the Extra Ordinary Form this year, and find that I am more reverent, respectful, much more modest in dress, and also follow the custom of covering my head when entering a Catholic church for any reason beyond Mass of either form. I am still learning and understanding some of the responses & knowing when to stand, sit or kneel at EF Mass but I am more confident to sit closer to the front of the church compared to my first few times where I sat in the back & imitated people in front of me.

I just wished there were EF Masses in my diocese as the closest ones are at least 25 miles away from my home in another diocese. But it is worth the drive, and I will drive to them as long as the weather is not snow as I am not one to drive in those conditions unless I have to & I do not have to work that day.
 
dean24us said:
Regarding you other point, I didn’t mean to imply SOME people don’t understand the prayers, but I hard a very hard time believing that few people raised post Vatican II know enough Latin to fully grasp what is being said.
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Well, they’re certainly not going to know Latin if they never read or hear it. It seems like that was the whole idea behind the all-vernacular - to promote (money-making?) translations and stifle the exposure to Latin so that the people would never hear it or teach it to their kids. I’m afraid Vatican II never called for that. No one dreamt in 1962 that within seven years all Masses would be in some divisive national language which would always be changing and which would not be understood that much better, if at all. Now it becomes a matter of trying to reverse entropy.
 
Immaculata90 said:
*The wording language proper is used to refer to the language that is used in that country. I don’t mean proper to mean correct, but rather specific. I didn’t want to confuse you…I’m not really sure that there is a good word to use.
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The council of Trent refered to it as “vulgaris lingua” (“Missa vulgari lingua non celebretur.” - Session 22)
 
I grew up in the OF, and started attending the EF about 2 years ago. I love it.

Latin is a big part of the TLM. However it is far from the only “attraction”. The fact that Latin is a dead language is a GOOD thing in my opinion. It makes it more difficult for the Mass to be “tinkered” with, adlibbed, etc. There is also something very special about the Church having a universal language. Mass being celebrated in the same words in America, Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. The same around the world. It unites the people of God in way which very much contrasts the confusion of language at the tower of Babel.

I’m firmly in favor of Latin for the Latin Mass. However, there are reasonable arguments to be made that there are advantages to the vernacular.

As I said though, there is far more to the TLM, than the Latin, and an EF celebrated in the vernacular, if the Church were to permit it, would still be far different than the OF.

The EF engages you in a totally different way. If one doesn’t know the theology of what is going on, it is easy to miss it at the OF. A protestant can quite easily come to an OF mass and leave thinking it’s not that different from their own church service. If the same protestant goes to the EF, they may not understand everything, but they will quite clearly see that something Catholics at least believe is special is happening.

If you haven’t been to an EF Mass, I highly encourage you to do so. It is my fervent prayer that the TLM (perhaps not following the exact 1962 missal) becomes the OF once again.

The biggest reason is the emphasis the TLM places on the sacrifice of the altar and the holiness of the True presence. It is my firm belief that great many problems we face in our culture- abortion, adultery, divorce, oppression, lack of priests, closing parishes, and on and on, call all be traced back to how we view the Eucharist.

Can one have a reverant view of the Eucharist and attend the OF? Yes. Can one have an irreverant view of the Eucharist and attend the EF? Yes. However, I believe attending the EF, is an aid to having the proper view of the Most Holy Sacrament- and that is something we most dearly need.

Pax and God Bless.
 
ProVobis said:
As well as some Greek (“Kyrie Eleison”) and Hebrew (“Sabaoth”), which are also small but significant parts of the Latin OF. 😉
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Indeed.

It’s actually perfectly fine to say the entire OF in Latin I believe. Which part of why comparing the EF and OF is sometimes very difficult.

The OF doesn’t have to be in the vernacular.

The OF doesn’t have to eliminate the communion rail.

The OF doesn’t have to be celebrated with the priest facing the congregation.

The OF doesn’t have to be celebrated with contemporary Christian music and 60-70’s folk songs.

The OF doesn’t have to use altar girls almost to the exclusion of altar boys.

The OF doesn’t have to use EMHCs.

MUCH of the “norm” of what one sees at the OF, is not required at all. The OF could indeed have much of what the TLM has that draws people to it.

Pax and God Bless.
 
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