Latin Mass

[Catherine_k]

Hi… Not certain if this is the correct forum but here goes…

Out of curiosity (and a desire to better understand the Liturgy) I finally attended a mass at the FSSP church within the diocese. Acknowledging that my high school latin is more than a little rusty, I was disappointed as I found it almost impossible to follow along. In fairness, the congregation was (without exception) attentive and focussed on the Mass…

I guess I’m wondering what the value is to someone formed in faith by the post Vatican 2 mass, what the value would be to my trying again…

 

[alwayslooking]

I find that attending the EF Mass is far more reverent and rich in sacred language.

Did you use a hand missal? I find that when I use a hand missal when attending either the OF or EF it helps me put my mind toward the prayers and movements that are a part of Mass.

Mass is a sacred time not entertainment. Personally, I find the EF to be far more reverent meaningful than the OF.

 

[midori]

Sounds like you went to a Low Mass? You might find a High Mass more enjoyable to start with until you get more familiar-- the Gregorian Chant isn’t in synch with where the priest is in his prayers, but it’s very helpful to lend towards the sacred atmosphere.

One of the important things to bear in mind is that in the Latin Mass, the priest is leading the congregation in prayer and addressing God, which is why (a) everyone is facing the same direction, and (b) he’s deliberately speaking quietly. When I was able to visit an FSSP parish back in my old city, I never minded his orientation, but not being able to hear what he was saying was very frustrating at first. And they know it, but it’s very deliberate-- I went to a study session several weeks in a row to learn more about the Tridentine Mass, and he mentioned an anecdote about how a parishioner had come up to him and say, “Father, I can barely hear you! You need to speak more loudly!” And he responds, “Oh? You can hear me?” And he’s even quieter from then on out.

Another important thing is to have a Latin missal with you. You can usually keep up with where you are in the Mass based on the congregation’s responses, so even if you can’t hear what’s being said when it’s said, you can still get an idea of what’s going on.

The traditional Catholics on the forum can probably give you better advice, but that’s what I found helpful in my experience.

 

[Jenniferolg]

FSSP? EH? OF? Is there a cheat sheet somewhere to explain all the initials I find on this forum?

 

[malphono]

FSSP? EH? OF? Is there a cheat sheet somewhere to explain all the initials I find on this forum?

I’m afraid there’s no formal “cheat sheet” as such (at least I don’t know of one) but for the moment perhaps this will help:

FSSP = Priestly Fraternity of St Peter (initials taken from its Latin name)
EF = “Extraordinary Form” also known as the Usus Antiquior or TLM (Traditional Latin Mass)
OF = “Ordinary Form” (aka Novus Ordo)

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Hi… Not certain if this is the correct forum but here goes…

Out of curiosity (and a desire to better understand the Liturgy) I finally attended a mass at the FSSP church within the diocese. Acknowledging that my high school latin is more than a little rusty, I was disappointed as I found it almost impossible to follow along. In fairness, the congregation was (without exception) attentive and focussed on the Mass…

I guess I’m wondering what the value is to someone formed in faith by the post Vatican 2 mass, what the value would be to my trying again…

I’d say the value is that you went to mass that was celebrated for centuries before liturgical experimenting began. This spiritual and historical connection is perhaps the most important thing for me when it comes to the form I prefer. I was also raised on the post V2 mass and encountering traditional liturgy was a bit of a culture shock. It asks of us to pay more attention, to participate in a different way and to use a book. The mass in EF form is very prayerful, and because the congregation does not respond all the time, that allows us to sink into it more deeply and unite our prayers with the priest. I suggest you go several times before you make up your mind about it. It will take you a few times to get a hang of it and learn how to use the missal, but don’t let that discourage you. The EF mass is so beautiful and special.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

I find that attending the EF Mass is far more reverent and rich in sacred language.

Did you use a hand missal? I find that when I use a hand missal when attending either the OF or EF it helps me put my mind toward the prayers and movements that are a part of Mass.

Mass is a sacred time not entertainment. Personally, I find the EF to be far more reverent meaningful than the OF.

I have to second you. I feel the exact same way. Mass is not a time for entertainment, but to witness the re-presentation of Christ on Calvary. Many times I can not understand what is going on at the Novus Ordo because the priest dosent speak english and there is so much liturgical abuse!

Pretaining to real question, I would recomend watching it on the internet (this would fimalerise you with it) and following along in the missal when you are at mass. Everything in the Tridentine Mass makes sence and is perfect, almost, in its reverence.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

 

[TrueLight]

Hi… Not certain if this is the correct forum but here goes…

Out of curiosity (and a desire to better understand the Liturgy) I finally attended a mass at the FSSP church within the diocese. Acknowledging that my high school latin is more than a little rusty, I was disappointed as I found it almost impossible to follow along. In fairness, the congregation was (without exception) attentive and focussed on the Mass…

I guess I’m wondering what the value is to someone formed in faith by the post Vatican 2 mass, what the value would be to my trying again…

When I think of the traditional Latin mass, I think of the image in my signature.

But it can be intimidating at first because of the Latin,

I wonder if you actually did attend a low mass - something I would not recommend for a first timer, although some will disagree.

When I attended my first TLM, I did not understand what to do at all. I’m sure you knew more than me because it was my first Catholic mass. At home, before I attended the mass, I even practiced genuflecting in the mirror!

Yet, I couldn’t help but notice the reverence and the chant and polyphonic music brought me to heaven.

Soon after I got a missal and things started to make more sense.

You can check out the order of mass here.

I would agree with the poster who said you should check out some masses on youtube.

Here is a beautiful mass.

And if you did attend a low mass, get thee to a sung mass.

 

[Cat]

Seeking to understand something is not the same thing as seeking entertainment.

I don’t think the OP sounded like they are looking for entertainment.

Frankly, I’m a little put off by some of the comments about “entertainment” in this thread. I don’t attend the OF to be entertained, and I don’t think most other Catholics do either.

Good heavens, if I wanted entertainment, I could find many many venues that are a lot more entertaining than a Catholic Mass! A kids’ program at a local public school would be more entertaining than most of the Masses that I’ve attended in the last seven years.

Many of us simply want to understand what is being said or sung without having to translate it out of a book. That’s not an “entertainment” mentality, it’s a “scientific” mentality. Is it wrong to seek understanding?

I know that some people who attend EF Masses say that we should forget trying to translate, and instead, just trust the priest to offer the prayers, and join in with our “souls.” I really don’t get that at all. If you do get it, that’s super and I’m glad that you have found a Mass that helps you to grow in Christ. But I’m sure that many others besides me really don’t understand how someone can join in a prayer without having any idea what is being said.

As for the OP’s question about the value of the EF Mass to a post-Vatican II Catholic, I think it is fair to say that attending the EF Mass can give a Catholic an appreciation of the long history and rich tradition of the Catholic Church, as well as a respect for the intellectualism of the Church. Also, I think that the two different forms of the Mass, as well as different rites of the Mass, can help us appreciate and love the vastness and universality of the Catholic Church.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Seeking to understand something is not the same thing as seeking entertainment.

I don’t think the OP sounded like they are looking for entertainment.

Frankly, I’m a little put off by some of the comments about “entertainment” in this thread. I don’t attend the OF to be entertained, and I don’t think most other Catholics do either.

Good heavens, if I wanted entertainment, I could find many many venues that are a lot more entertaining than a Catholic Mass! A kids’ program at a local public school would be more entertaining than most of the Masses that I’ve attended in the last seven years.

Many of us simply want to understand what is being said or sung without having to translate it out of a book. That’s not an “entertainment” mentality, it’s a “scientific” mentality. Is it wrong to seek understanding?

I know that some people who attend EF Masses say that we should forget trying to translate, and instead, just trust the priest to offer the prayers, and join in with our “souls.” I really don’t get that at all. If you do get it, that’s super and I’m glad that you have found a Mass that helps you to grow in Christ. But I’m sure that many others besides me really don’t understand how someone can join in a prayer without having any idea what is being said.

As for the OP’s question about the value of the EF Mass to a post-Vatican II Catholic, I think it is fair to say that attending the EF Mass can give a Catholic an appreciation of the long history and rich tradition of the Catholic Church, as well as a respect for the intellectualism of the Church. Also, I think that the two different forms of the Mass, as well as different rites of the Mass, can help us appreciate and love the vastness and universality of the Catholic Church.

I have to agree with you on the comments you made about entertainment. I cringe when I read comments about people wanting to be 'entertained" at the OF. I don’t know anyone who goes to Mass to be entertained. They may enjoy the music or the homily, etc., but that does not mean they are wanting to be entertained. I would not tell a person who enjoys Gregorian chant and goes to the EF that they are just going to Mass to hear the chant and be entertained by it. We need to stop judging the motives of our sisters and brothers in Christ and show a little more respect for each other.

And I am willing to bet that a lot of the negativity on these forums comes from people reading the negative comments of other posters about things and then adopting the attitudes. Most people have never heard of some of the stuff people gripe about until they came to CAF.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t know anyone who goes to Mass to be entertained.

What are we discussing, more semantics? Everyone has a different reason, I’m sure. Most just want to get the obligation out of the way, receive communion, etc. Some are used to not understanding the readings, be they in Latin, Spanish, or even English. I don’t fully comprehend the English translations so is it going to kill me to hear the Mass in Vietnamese? How many remember the readings or discuss them after Mass? Is someone going to test you on them? Maybe, just maybe, the Mass is intended to be a mystery, something away from everyday life, which I’d like to leave outside the church doors. That should be edification enough, if I may coin a phrase.

 

[agnes_therese]

Anyway, to get back to the original topic . . .
I would suggest getting a missal to help you follow along. And keep attending, give it some time, because it’s quite a change from what you are accustomed to.

You’re very fortunate to have an FSSP Mass available; many of us don’t.

 

[Catherine_k]

First and foremost, I went to the Latin Mass for a better understanding of the liturgy. I do NOT attend Mass (or further, when attending any other religion’s prayers for whatever reason) for entertainment. I appreciate the statements of understanding many of you listed.

I acknowledge that my Latin is rusty (being charitable…). I accept that working through the latin will require much more thought and end the possibility (on my part) of automatic (or thoughtless/rote) responses. I am prepared to struggle with my understanding, and to quietly listen and learn.

I DID use a Missal and it WAS a low Mass. What I found difficult was that the priest was almost impossible to hear. I wasn’t prepared to not be able to hear him sufficiently to follow along.

I am going to assume to attending a LOW MASS was the initial mistake, and attempt to attend a SUNG MASS as another poster kindly suggested. I appreciate the kind suggestions (and links TO) online resources to help me better prepare.

In general, I reached out on this forum becuase I WANT to deepen my understanding and faith. While I may (at some point) elect NOT to continue attending or observing a TLM, I still feel compelled to explore this form of the liturgy. I am not (in any way) criticizing either form or individuals who prefer one form over the other. What I hope is that we will not dwell on different preferences: rather we should dwell on what unites us.

 

[Brendan]

I know that some people who attend EF Masses say that we should forget trying to translate, and instead, just trust the priest to offer the prayers, and join in with our “souls.” I really don’t get that at all. If you do get it, that’s super and I’m glad that you have found a Mass that helps you to grow in Christ. But I’m sure that many others besides me really don’t understand how someone can join in a prayer without having any idea what is being said.

Pick up a copy of Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. His Holiness devoted a full chapter to that very point.

The prayer of the priest and the prayer of the people are two distinct and seperate prayers. You don’t join in his prayer; you cannot, you are a member of the ministerial priesthood.

The prayer of the priest is between him and God. We have no need to either hear nor understand it. ( Generally, listening in on other people’s converstations is considered to be rude , but that is exactly what the priest is doing, it is a conversation between God the Son, throught the priest, and God the Father.)

What we do, as members of the common priesthood, is to offer our selves, our souls, our every act to God. That is what Pope Benedict noted Vatican II meant by 'full and conscience participation". It means that we offer ourselves FULLY as a sacrifice to God and we do so with all our full mental faculties.

That is our prayer to God, the one we offer as the common priesthood. But the priest has no need to hear us make our offering, in fact we do it in silence as the priest makes his offering of Christ Himself to God as (name removed by moderator)ersona Christi.

That is true in any form of the Mass, EF, OF, Byzantine, Chaldean…

 

[ProVobis]

Pick up a copy of Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. His Holiness devoted a full chapter to that very point.

The prayer of the priest and the prayer of the people are two distinct and seperate prayers. You don’t join in his prayer; you cannot, you are a member of the ministerial priesthood.

The prayer of the priest is between him and God. We have no need to either hear nor understand it. ( Generally, listening in on other people’s converstations is considered to be rude , but that is exactly what the priest is doing, it is a conversation between God the Son, throught the priest, and God the Father.)

What we do, as members of the common priesthood, is to offer our selves, our souls, our every act to God. That is what Pope Benedict noted Vatican II meant by 'full and conscience participation". It means that we offer ourselves FULLY as a sacrifice to God and we do so with all our full mental faculties.

That is our prayer to God, the one we offer as the common priesthood. But the priest has no need to hear us make our offering, in fact we do it in silence as the priest makes his offering of Christ Himself to God as (name removed by moderator)ersona Christi.

That is true in any form of the Mass, EF, OF, Byzantine, Chaldean…

Good post. Good to put things in their proper perspective.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

Seeking to understand something is not the same thing as seeking entertainment.

I don’t think the OP sounded like they are looking for entertainment.

Frankly, I’m a little put off by some of the comments about “entertainment” in this thread. I don’t attend the OF to be entertained, and I don’t think most other Catholics do either.

Good heavens, if I wanted entertainment, I could find many many venues that are a lot more entertaining than a Catholic Mass! A kids’ program at a local public school would be more entertaining than most of the Masses that I’ve attended in the last seven years.

Many of us simply want to understand what is being said or sung without having to translate it out of a book. That’s not an “entertainment” mentality, it’s a “scientific” mentality. Is it wrong to seek understanding?

I know that some people who attend EF Masses say that we should forget trying to translate, and instead, just trust the priest to offer the prayers, and join in with our “souls.” I really don’t get that at all. If you do get it, that’s super and I’m glad that you have found a Mass that helps you to grow in Christ. But I’m sure that many others besides me really don’t understand how someone can join in a prayer without having any idea what is being said.

As for the OP’s question about the value of the EF Mass to a post-Vatican II Catholic, I think it is fair to say that attending the EF Mass can give a Catholic an appreciation of the long history and rich tradition of the Catholic Church, as well as a respect for the intellectualism of the Church. Also, I think that the two different forms of the Mass, as well as different rites of the Mass, can help us appreciate and love the vastness and universality of the Catholic Church.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. There is this idea amoung OF attendents (NOT all, only some, but by no means few) that because you can understand the languare of the prayers, you can understand the Mass better, and thus it is more entertaining and you are able to better follow along. That is simply not true. Just because you can understand the language of the prayers, dosent mean you can automaticly understand their signifigance or how holy and great of an event that is going on around you. In the Latin mass, there are more prayers not only for the people, but also for the Priest (whereas the OF is mostly said out loud). The responces are all in the Missal and are really not that hard to memorise (I have a rudemtuary understanding of Latin and I can very easily follow what is going on, even though I am a highschool student who strugles with forgen language). It was just as easy to say the responces in the TLM when it was the OF because people would go every sunday and eventualy memorise them, just like people who attand the english mass do the same, they memorise the responces. Really, not speaking latin should be a not-issue with regard to attanding TLM.

It is much easier to forget the importance and holiness of the Mass when you are attanding a OF mass simply because it is not sourounded with the holiness, reverence towards Our blessed Lord in the Eucharist, and the mysterious sanctity of the Traditional Latin mass. In the OF, the emphasis is taken off the Eucharist and put on the priest and the people. This is reflected in the complants of many “contempary Catholics” who say that they cant understand what is going on. It is better expressed in the words of a holy priest…

“Nothing is left to chance nothing is left to the design or creativity of the celebrant because if anything is clear by the way you have to say the Mass in exactly this way and no other—is that the Mass is not about the priest and his ever-bubbly personality or even the people. **** This is about Jesus****. And all the little personalisms that we priests tend to do only distract from Him. If you learned anything learning how to say the Latin Mass—you learned that this was one serious prayer.”

Sometimes, the Novous Ordo mass, when said improperly (which is more often than not), feels like a big community get-together rather than the Re-presentation of Christ’s crucifiction on the alter…

On offence, but the reasons you gave with regard to the value of the TLM to a “modern” Catholic were superfical. Many people attend the Latin Mass not only because it is an unbroken link with history, but because they feel it is more reverent, beautiful, makes more sence ans is more coherent, and the parisoners usualy are more reverent. I really dont see are reason why any believing, faithful Catholic sould not want to attend the Tridentine Mass, as it rightly brings emphasis on the Eucharistic sacrifice of the mass, where as the OF highlights the unimportant aspect of the meal. After all, dont we all love our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ?

PS: I am not a sedevacantist and in no way is the OF illegitimate.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

 

[Windmill]

One thing that always strikes me when I assist at an EF Mass is how this Mass was the heartfelt inspiration of countless peasants, kings, saints, sinners, men, women, and children throughout history (yes, there were minor changes, but over a millennia and a half of Catholics heard these exact prayers in the same Latin language with the same priestly gestures accompanying them). I find it so humbling to be connected to all of them in this way.

I found it hard to adapt to the differences in the OF and EF, but I figured, if countless generations of pious souls found immense spiritual fulfillment from this rite of Mass, then so can I. And I have.

I sometimes wonder what Catholics of centuries past would think if they walked into a typical parish nowadays and witnessed a Mass.

 

[DAAVEED1590]

One thing that always strikes me when I assist at an EF Mass is how this Mass was the heartfelt inspiration of countless peasants, kings, saints, sinners, men, women, and children throughout history (yes, there were minor changes, but over a millennia and a half of Catholics heard these exact prayers in the same Latin language with the same priestly gestures accompanying them). I find it so humbling to be connected to all of them in this way.

I found it hard to adapt to the differences in the OF and EF, but I figured, if countless generations of pious souls found immense spiritual fulfillment from this rite of Mass, then so can I. And I have.

I sometimes wonder what Catholics of centuries past would think if they walked into a typical parish nowadays and witnessed a Mass.

I have to say, they would probably be horrified…Many Catholics from today are horrified when they walk into the masses of less reverent parishes…

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. There is this idea amoung OF attendents (NOT all, only some, but by no means few) that because you can understand the languare of the prayers, you can understand the Mass better, and thus it is more entertaining and you are able to better follow along. That is simply not true. Just because you can understand the language of the prayers, dosent mean you can automaticly understand their signifigance or how holy and great of an event that is going on around you. In the Latin mass, there are more prayers not only for the people, but also for the Priest (whereas the OF is mostly said out loud). The responces are all in the Missal and are really not that hard to memorise (I have a rudemtuary understanding of Latin and I can very easily follow what is going on, even though I am a highschool student who strugles with forgen language). It was just as easy to say the responces in the TLM when it was the OF because people would go every sunday and eventualy memorise them, just like people who attand the english mass do the same, they memorise the responces. Really, not speaking latin should be a not-issue with regard to attanding TLM.

It is much easier to forget the importance and holiness of the Mass when you are attanding a OF mass simply because it is not sourounded with the holiness, reverence towards Our blessed Lord in the Eucharist, and the mysterious sanctity of the Traditional Latin mass. In the OF, the emphasis is taken off the Eucharist and put on the priest and the people. This is reflected in the complants of many “contempary Catholics” who say that they cant understand what is going on. It is better expressed in the words of a holy priest…

“Nothing is left to chance nothing is left to the design or creativity of the celebrant because if anything is clear by the way you have to say the Mass in exactly this way and no other—is that the Mass is not about the priest and his ever-bubbly personality or even the people. **** This is about Jesus****. And all the little personalisms that we priests tend to do only distract from Him. If you learned anything learning how to say the Latin Mass—you learned that this was one serious prayer.”

Sometimes, the Novous Ordo mass, when said improperly (which is more often than not), feels like a big community get-together rather than the Re-presentation of Christ’s crucifiction on the alter…

On offence, but the reasons you gave with regard to the value of the TLM to a “modern” Catholic were superfical. Many people attend the Latin Mass not only because it is an unbroken link with history, but because they feel it is more reverent, beautiful, makes more sence ans is more coherent, and the parisoners usualy are more reverent. I really dont see are reason why any believing, faithful Catholic sould not want to attend the Tridentine Mass, as it rightly brings emphasis on the Eucharistic sacrifice of the mass, where as the OF highlights the unimportant aspect of the meal. After all, dont we all love our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ?

PS: I am not a sedevacantist and in no way is the OF illegitimate.

God Bless and Ave Maria!

I really hope you qualify all of this with the fact that this is merely your opinion, rather than expecting that people should take your declarative statements and opinions as the gospel truth… The Pope has stated both forms are equal, one is not superior over the other, and we should not be pitting one form against the other. That is the teaching of the Church.

Having a preference is fine, but you make too many prejudicial and assumptive statements that can’t be proved. People have their reasons for attending the OF and they are just as legitimate as the reasons people give for the EF. And your assumption that the emphasis of the OF is on the people and the priest rather than the Eucharist is unfounded, as well as your statement that the OF is usually said improperly. These are the type of statements that cause disagreements and division.

 

[japhy]

Pick up a copy of Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. His Holiness devoted a full chapter to that very point.

Where does Card. Ratzinger make the points you make in the remainder of your comment? I’ve read the book you mention, but I don’t recall these sorts of conclusions:

The prayer of the priest and the prayer of the people are two distinct and seperate prayers. You don’t join in his prayer; you cannot, you are [not] a member of the ministerial priesthood.

But the priest is often praying in the first person plural: “We” this and “we” that. He invites the congregation to join him in giving thanks to the Lord: “Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.” Ratzinger even recommends that some of the quiet prayers of the priest (such as those said right before he receives Communion) are suitable for the laity to use themselves.

The prayer of the priest is between him and God. We have no need to either hear nor understand it. …]

Again, the priest is not praying for himself, but for all of us. His prayer is between US and God. If we have no need to hear or understand it, why did the first Christians both hear and understand it? Why isn’t the whole Divine Liturgy prayed silently?

What we do, as members of the common priesthood, is to offer our selves, our souls, our every act to God. That is what Pope Benedict noted Vatican II meant by 'full and conscience participation".

Full, active, and conscious participation is not strictly an internal and spiritual self-offering, as important as that is. The participation also manifests itself externally, with prayers and responses spoken/sung aloud, with gestures and postures, etc. And the laity are not just engaged in a self-offering: they also offer the Divine Victim to God, not only through the hands of the priest, but with the priest as well.

But the priest has no need to hear us make our offering, in fact we do it in silence as the priest makes his offering of Christ Himself to God as (name removed by moderator)ersona Christi.

That almost sounds like you’re saying Christ has no need to hear us making our offering to His Father.